Startup Series: CarbiCrete

Today's guest is Chris Stern, Co-Founder & CEO of CarbiCrete.

Carbicrete is a Montreal-based carbon removal technology company that is developing innovative, low-cost building solutions that reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The company's patented technology, first developed at McGill University, enables cement-free, carbon-negative concrete production. The process uses an industrial by-product – the slag from steel factories – to replace cement as a binding ingredient in precast concrete products. The process injects CO2 into the fresh concrete to provide strength while permanently sequestering the carbon.

In this episode, Chris outlines Carbicrete's mission, its technology, and what makes the company unique. Then, we dive into the process of taking technology from the lab to market and non-dilutive capital versus equity capital when raising funds as a startup. Chris also explains why cement is so hard to decarbonize and what gives him hope that we can address climate change.

Enjoy the show!

You can find me on Twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@myclimatejourney.co, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.

Episode recorded June 21, 2021

• Episode Transcript

  Jason Jacobs: Hey, everyone, Jason here. I am the My Climate Journey show host. Before we get going, I wanted to take a minute and tell you about the My Climate Journey, or MCJ as we call it, membership option. Membership came to be because there were a bunch of people that were listening to the show that weren't just looking for education, but they were longing for a peer group as well, so we set up a Slack community for those people that's now mushroomed into more than 1,300 members. There is an application to become a member. It's not an exclusive thing, there's four criteria we screen for, determination to tackle the problem of climate change, ambition to work on the most impactful solution areas, optimism that we can make a dent and we're not wasting our time for trying, and a collaborative spirit. Beyond that, the more diversity the better.

  There's a bunch of great things that have come out of that community. A number of founding teams that have met in there, a number of nonprofits that have been e- established, a bunch of hiring that's been done, a bunch of companies that have raised capital in there, a bunch of funds that have gotten limited partners or investors for their funds in there. As well as a bunch of events and programming by members and for members and some open source projects that are getting actively worked on that hatched in there as well. At any rate, if you wanna learn more you can go to myclimatejouney.co, the website and click the become a member tab at the top. Enjoy the show.

  Hello, everyone. This is Jason Jacobs and welcome to My Climate Journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change and try to figure out how people like you and I can help.

  Today's guest is Chris Stern, CEO and co-founder at CarbiCrete, a Montreal-based carbon removal technology company that's developing innovative, low cost building solutions that contribute to the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. The company has a patented technology first developed at McGill that enables the production of cement-free, carbon-negative concrete. I was excited for this one because cement and concrete are surprisingly large sources of emissions and they're also really hard to decarbonize. CarbiCrete has a different kind of approach that uses an industrial byproduct, the slag from steel factories to replace cement as a binding ingredient in precast concrete products.

  I love the out of the box thinking here and it's fascinating to learn more about CarbiCrete's story, how they came up with the idea, how they went about taking it to market, when they did, the twists and turns and phases that they've been through to date, the progress that they've made, what's coming next, their long vision. We also just have a great discussion about how to bring these hard tech companies in general to market and the role that they can play in accelerating the clean energy transition. Chris, welcome to the show.

  Chris Stern: Hey, thank you very much for having me on the show, Jason.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh, thanks for coming. Yeah, I'm excited for this one. I mean, decarbonizing cement and concrete, I've- I've looked at it some, people like Rob Niven and Josephine Cheung from GCP Applied Technologies, but it seems like CarbiCrete's got a- a different approach and definitely an area where- where we still have room learn and- and other stones to- to turn over, so thanks for making the time.

  Chris Stern: I appreciate it. Thank you.

  Jason Jacobs: So jumping right into it, what is CarbiCrete?

  Chris Stern: CarbiCrete is a technology that replaces cement in concrete. And how do we do that? Well, we actually use an industrial waste byproduct of the steel making industry called steel slag. And steel slag, there's, like, 250 million tons of it made every year as a direct result of making steel and it's generally land-filled or used as road base, so it doesn't have a high value and in some cases there's a- a cost to get rid of it. And it's basically ground down to the specification that we advise and it's used in place of cement in masonry products like concrete blocks and paving stones and retaining walls. And the one way it differs in cement is that is does not hydrate so, you know, it does not cure by hydration. It actually cures by subjecting it through CO2, so the calcium oxide and silicon setter that make up this hard mineral actually react with CO2 and it consumes CO2 in great quantities, actually.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And what's the origin story for the company? How and when and why did it come about?

  Chris Stern: That's a great question. This is my second start-up. My first start-up was in solar power, residential solar power, th- uh, a company called Pure Energies and we started that company in 2010, four of us and we grew it from four people to 200 in about four years and we ended up selling the company to NRG Energy in 2014. So after a year of looking after children and other things like that, I decided that maybe I should do something else and my dad told me to go back to work, in fact. So he actually introduced me to the tech transfer people at McGill and then that's where I met the professor as well as his graduate student Mehrdad Mahoutian, who invented this process.

  And that's also where I learned in 2015 how bad cement actually is. I mean, to me, up until that point, I just thought it was an innocuous powder that people put together with aggregate and water and made concrete. But, in fact, it's actually responsible for eight to 10% of greenhouse gas emissions so, like, two gigatons a year. And it's very difficult to decarbonize. I mean, you can choose different fuels to mix cement, but the general process is driving the CO2 off the calcium carbonate and just that process alone releases a lot of CO2, so that's why we got into it.

  Jason Jacobs: And given that your first company was in solar and- and this company's now in concrete and both of those have a climate bent to them, is that an accident, is that intentional? How did that all come about that you are a multiple time climate tech founder?

  Chris Stern: Actually, what it comes down to is that, uh, you know, I started my career off in selling packaging equipment, which is actually making garbage, right? Then, from there I moved into the automotive industry, which is another industry that's very, I would say, you know, dirty and, uh, after a couple of these jobs and positions, I realized that I should go back to my roots which, you know, I- I'd like- as a child, I used to pick up litter and, you know, throw it in the garbage and- and things like that, so I- I have this, I've always had this desire to have a clean world, clean surrounding.

  So, you know, I started working at a company that was in the CD and DVD manufacturing industry and they wanted to get into new industry, so I identified the solar power industry that is something that I wanted to be involved with because a CD is about the same size as a solar cell. So they sold materials into the CD and DVD industry and I identified solar industry that uses a lot of the same processes to make solar cells as CDs and DVDs that it was a good- good place to go to. So that's how it all started and that was in 2005.

  Jason Jacobs: And as you started thinking about what was next, had you ever taken a technology out of the lab before? Dealt with the tech tan- transfer people and things like that or was this the first time?

  Chris Stern: It's the first time. Yeah, it was the first time. It's been an interesting journey the, uh, because basically you're taking it from academics and building a business around it because academics don't think of what the business should look like when they're actually inventing something, they just know that it's good. If you make something that's carbon negative, I mean, back in 2012 when Mehrdad was starting it, it was, you know, obviously very important, but today, it's on the tip of everybody's tongue. Uh, you know, like, getting rid of the CO2 emissions from cement is extremely important and difficult, it's very difficult.

  Jason Jacobs: And so what- what form was the tech or what form was the project or what form was the company in when you first started the discussions?

  Chris Stern: Basically, it was, Mehrdad was, uh, wrapping up his PhD, so it was basically a science project. But he had invented this thing, McGill had applied for the patent and I said, "Well, you know, maybe I should take this patent and we'll build a company around it." So it was really, literally right from the lab.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And with the benefit of- of hindsight, so let's say there's other entrepreneurs listening who might not have taken technology out of the lab before, but are very climate motivated and may be having similar discussions like you were having with tech transfer offices and things like that. What advice do you have or, I guess, same question in terms of how you went about specifically determining or, you know, evaluating this opportunity or evaluating in the context of other tech that you might take outta the lab?

  Chris Stern: Well, I mean, like, for sure I'll say the same things I said back then. It sounds too good to be true because literally we are replacing cement, we're using an industrial waste byproduct and we're sequestering the CO2 forever, it'll never come out of that block. I said, "Why isn't somebody commercializing this right now?" because it made no sense. Like, this is the best idea, it is seriously the best idea and that's- I still believe it. So, you know, if it sounds good and if when you tell people and the reaction always, "Well, that sounds like a great idea," well, it probably is, you know? And people still, I tell this story every time, they say, "That s- s- sounds like the best idea ever," you know? Like, "Why aren't you everywhere?" you know? And it's because, you know, we're growing the company and, you know, we're commercializing the- the process right now.

  Jason Jacobs: And so when you started engaging when was that? And then what are the key steps or phases or, you know, what have you [laughs] guys gotten done between then and now?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, interesting. So- so basically, I started talking to them in 2015 and it was about a year of, you know, just a meeting every month or so, just to try and understand what these guys were up to. And then eventually, you know, the XPRIZE, uh, the Carbon XPRIZE was started and we said, "Well, let's just hop into this." And so we did and then, you know, we made it to the finals and subsequently didn't proceed because we had to build a plant in Alberta, where there's no steel slag. So we- we basically said, "Well, why don't we just raise funds and build something in Quebec where we're all residing w- and where there's tons of steel slag?" So that's, you know, that's where it- it started off based on the- the XPRIZE, but then that quickly morphed into let's build a business plan, let's raise capital, you know, and let's get this thing, you know, to the size and scope that it needs to be.

  Jason Jacobs: And when you looked at the concrete market at that time, what was it about it that made it so hard to decarbonize? And- and relatedly, what are some of the leading approaches other than the- the one that you're pursuing with- with CarbiCrete that are attempting to address this issue?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, so it's very difficult to decarbonize cement making because the chemical reaction produces CO2, so that's very difficult to- to stop. So if you are gonna make cement, then the only way to decarbonize it is to capture the CO2 and do something with the CO2. So there are companies doing that, like Svante in Canada is- got a process to do that, to capture emissions from cement plants, you know? Or you can do other things like, um, CarbonCure which are, you know, putting CO2 into cement trucks, concrete trucks, which lowers the amount of cement that's required in the concrete and thereby, because of doing that, it- it lowers the amount of CO2 that's produced.

  But there's not a lot of people looking at this industry because it's so difficult. It's not like if you go back to the electric grid, like, solar power's been around since the '50s, right, when Bell Labs started to make solar cells. And, you know, it's- the cost curve was driven down from, like, $100 a watt to... installed costs, you know, for residential solar now is, like two bucks a watt, like, and it's installed. Like, you know, back then it was 100 bucks a watt for a solar panel [laughs]. The cost curve had to be driven down and that's- th- that's what we're doing at this point as well, driving down the levelized cost of carbon capture.

  Jason Jacobs: And talk a bit about the CarbiCrete approach and what makes it different and unique.

  Chris Stern: Well, the approach is instead of, like, hit our heads against the wall in trying to decarbonize cement, we're using a product that's already existing. Uh, steel slag is- it's made every year. Like, it's part of the process and to make good steel, you're gonna produce a bunch of minerals and the minerals are, unfortunately until now, didn't have a big purpose in life, you know? They- they end up in land filler, like I said. A- as I mentioned, they could be used as road base so, like, aggregate, you know? Like, $5 a ton, basically so, like, not a huge value. So it's a- an existing thing that we took and say, "Well, let's just react this with CO2."

  And that's the uniqueness of it, right? We're taking essentially garbage, you know, and reacting it with CO2 and making a valuable product, concrete blocks, bricks, paving stones and retaining walls, things you can explain to your grandmother. It's not some sort of a- an interesting concept like, nobody understands what your doing, but it- it accomplishes something. Like, you know, direct air capture and putting the CO2 into the ground where it mineralizes it, you know, under the ground. Like, why do people do that when you could actually stick it into concrete blocks and build houses with it, build walls with it, use it for paving stones and things like that?

  Jason Jacobs: And was this an accidental discovery or when it was it in the lab, I mean, how- how did the team come upon the fact that this could be an option?

  Chris Stern: Well, so I'm really speaking on Mehr- Mehrdad's behalf but, the inventor. But what happened was, he started his PhD looking for a cement replacement and he tested a l- many different things and then discovered that steel slag is- is the best option. And he tried and he tried and he couldn't get it to work and so there's something, you know, he had to take in the lab grinder in for servicing and he took it in for servicing and when he got it back it actually worked. The p- reason why it hadn't worked thus far is because the grinder was busted the whole time. So he literally discovered the grinding or the- the actual morphology of- of the slag after he got it back, so it was kind of by accident.

  Jason Jacobs: And what is steel slag?

  Chris Stern: It's a very hard mineral. So, like, calcium- it's made of calcium oxide and silicates and silicate phases. So it- it's something that can react with carbon dioxide, so it's a very hard mineral.

  Jason Jacobs: Has anyone tried to make concrete without using cement before?

  Chris Stern: I'm sure there are different people or companies that have tried making different types of concretes. There are different types of concretes, but they are always normally very expensive. The unique thing of ours is that we're using a waste byproduct and waste stream, so they're... effectively, they're lower in cost and materials than regular concrete.

  Jason Jacobs: What's hard about it or said another way, what's defensible?

  Chris Stern: Not sure I understand.

  Jason Jacobs: So let's presume that you have some success and other people say, "Oh, that is too- not only is that not too good to be true, like, it's viable and everyone should do this." Like, what stops other people from- from doing it and having it just be kind of a race to the bottom on cost over time?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, that's, well, I mean, obviously we've built a interesting IP portfolio as well as there's a lot of secret sauce in there to actually m- make it happen at the reaction rate that you want, at the CO2 uptake that you want and the strengths that you want. There's a lot of, you can call it the secret sauce, that's been developed.

  The second thing and the m- more important thing is the supply of steel slag. I mean, any IP is great, but if you don't have any materials to make the product, then it's gonna be very difficult to operate. So we chose our first investor, the world's largest slag handling company, which is a company called Harsco, which is headquartered in Pennsylvania and they- they're operating on 140 steel sites all over the world. And, quite frankly, we get phone calls from steel companies all the time now, you know? They're like, "Well, how do we get your technology integrated?" so we've got projects on several different continents testing product and- and seeing, discussing pilot projects.

  Jason Jacobs: And w- on the supply side, what's the pitch to those s- steel slag manufacturers or the ones that- that have this waste byproduct? Why should they work with CarbiCrete?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, generally they're pitching us, but they've got a waste byproduct, so. But, basically, we're making a non-valuable waste stream of theirs valuable, so th- that's the pitch.

  Jason Jacobs: So they're pitching saying, "I have this waste and I can get incremental revenue if I work with you, so can I work with you?"

  Chris Stern: Yeah, exactly.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative].

  Chris Stern: It's worth more than using it as aggregate, put it that way.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And then what about on the other side? Who's the customer? And is that customer someone that CarbiCrete has a direct relationship with or- or is it more of a channel?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, so we don't build masonry plants because they already exist, so there's no reason for us to raise capital to b- build a whole bunch of concrete plants, so we license the technology and get a- a revenue stream there. And, of course, the revenue stream from the carbon dioxide that we either abate or fully remove.

  Jason Jacobs: Got it. And what types of entities do you license the t- technology to?

  Chris Stern: Like masonry producers, you know? So some examples could be CRH, um, you know, Oldcastle which, you know, has 200 masonry plants in North America alone, so they would be a target customer, for example.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And then what- what phase is the company in? How far along are you and what does the company or the business look like today?

  Chris Stern: So from it's start, it was just myself and Mehrdad and quickly added Yuri Mytko and Mario Venditti and from there we've grown the team to 22 people now and we've got a 10,000 square foot facility in the Montreal area where we're doing R&D, we're reviewing steel slags, we're inventing new products. So we've got a concrete lab that makes samples doing that and then we've got an industrial lab attached to it where we can make full size products. Then, of course, our headquarters is- is there. Separately of that, we're running a pilot at a masonry plant about an hour from Montreal called Patio Drummond where we're making concrete blocks today. And after that, we are basically building our supply chain around a steel plant not far from Patio Drummond and we've added a number of other customers that will be effectively installing our technology over the next year.

  Jason Jacobs: And how have you navigated the capital raising process? How has the company been funded to date and- and how much of that has been equity capital versus non-dilutive or other types of debt or- or other types of funding?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, that's another great question considering this is my second go-around, so it's important to keep as much equity in- inside the company as you can. So we've raised a bit of equity, but mostly it's been grants. Uh, so roughly half the cash that we've raised, which is, it's in eight digits, is- is basically from grants and there's another, I guess, one quarter of that which is in debt and then, you know, a quarter of- of equity. So we've been pretty stingy on the equity, you know, so we have gas in the tank for the next raise.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And don't- don't answer this if you don't wanna go there, but from the grant standpoint, what types of sources are there for those grants? And then, I guess, a build on that would just be what advice you have for other climate-focused founders trying to figure out both how to access and how to determine the best fit non-dilutive financing?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, so the- the first thing to advise is start your company in Canada because there's all kinds of programs here. So we have a grant from the SDTC, which is Sustainable Development and Technology Canada and so they've been at this for a dozen or more years, supporting companies like ours. And a sister to that grant program is Technoclimat, which is in Quebec, the province and they basically... it's the same paperwork except we have to submit it in French instead of English, but that's about the- it's the exact same paperwork, so we got a grant from that- that program. So it- it doesn't stop there. There's new programs that have just come out, the Strategic Innovation Fund in Canada is supporting companies like ours scale up. So there's all kinds of support in this country.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And what are the downsides to non-dilutive financing or specifically the path that- that you've chosen? Are there restrictions at all or limits in flexibility or reporting requirements or- or is it really just, like, free money?

  Chris Stern: I mean, there are some restrictions, you know, it's not terrible or anything, but there's some restrictions. You can't just take the money and go spend it on whatever you want and there's definitely a lot of reporting. So there is some reporting, but you can actually claim that as one of your allowable expenses, so it's not like you're taking it out of your own pocket to pay for those, uh, services.

  Jason Jacobs: And what about the debt? You mentioned there's some debt in the company. What's been the source of that and from your seed, is access to that type of capital plentiful or are there gaps when it relates to things like first of a kind or other steps along the way to bring a new technology to market?

  Chris Stern: Well, I mean, we have venture debt because we have equipment that we had to buy, so we leveraged that equipment with venture debt and it's a little bit higher risk than normal because, you know, as you said, it's a first company, right, so first of a kind. So it's not single digits, it's, you know, it's in double digits, so there's- there's type of debt. And then there's a couple government entities where we have actually no interest and a holiday for two years, you know, like, literally we have, yeah... Uh, like I said, if you're gonna start a company, do it in Canada because there's a lotta support for companies like this.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And then when you look forward in this next phase, what are the key priorities for the company and, to the extent that you'll be looking for outside capital, what profile of- of capital do you think is the best fit for this next phase? So what's the next phase and then what profile of capital do you think is- is the right size for that?

  Chris Stern: The next phase is basically getting a grinding system installed at the steel plant and- and basically tooling up to be able to sell all of the steel slag that can be put through that grinder from that steel plant. So finding enough customers around us, and there's plenty, you know, that can use the technology and so we're effectively raising capital to- we'll do that to raise this first cluster of customers. We call it a cluster of customers because they're clustered around a steel plant. Not next to them, but, like, you know, within, you know, a certain amount of kilometers. The next phase of the company is to build up that cluster.

  Jason Jacobs: And is that an equity raise, do you think?

  Chris Stern: Once again, we're talking to various levels of government for assistance on behalf of our customers and there's gonna be equity that we're also gonna raise, so depending on who owns what, we might also raise some debt once, uh, projects are sort of ossified.

  Jason Jacobs: And in some of these harder to decarbonize sectors like cement and concrete, I mean, do you think that traditional technology venture capital is a good fit for this type of company and- and this type of industry or- or should it be avoided?

  Chris Stern: I've had that discussion with myself, you know, for the last number of years because, you know, venture funding... It's a venture play because of the carbon aspect of this. So i- if you can, like, yes we're making nice concrete and yes it's beautiful, but really what we're doing is creating storage systems for CO2, that's what we're doing. And once you see it like that, then, you know, you basically, the venture at play is that you've got a way to capture carbon and store it forever, right?

  So, you know, there's a lot of direct air capture companies and other capture companies that, you know, are raising this capital or that capital, getting paid this amount of money to take CO2 out of the air, but the fact remains, once you've taken it out of the air what are you gonna do with it, you know? You've gotta do something with it, so you can stick it in the ground and it- that's fine and get paid to stick it in the ground or you can partner with a company like CarbiCrete and we'll put it into a valuable building product that could be sold just like regular concrete.

  Jason Jacobs: So in that model, so it- it sounds like there's a role for offsets, carbon credits. Do you see the direct air capture company leading those projects or is it CarbiCrete that's leading those projects? And given that you're the storage and in that- in that example, the direct air capture company's the one that's actually pulling the carbon outta the air, what might the- th- the business model be and- and who does what?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, that's a good question. We're working through that right now because it's new, right? This is totally new. But the fact remains that we're making a valuable building product with CO2 and there's a revenue stream available to direct air capture and where to put it afterwards, so it needs to be split amongst the two entities.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And so do you envision then, in that scenario, that the big companies, for example, that are making these big net zero commitments and need to offset a portion of their emissions as they're working through some of the harder to decarbonize aspects of their businesses and footprints and supply chains, et cetera, would they actually be consumers of yours or customers of the direct air capture company or... I guess I'm kinda asking the same question I just did, so the answer might just be, "We don't know yet," but...

  Chris Stern: No, uh, w- no we're talking through a lotta them right now, so it's, uh, uh... And I think it's new for them, too, right? The big thing they have a hard time understanding is that, "Oh, you don't just capture it and stick it in the ground. You actually do something with it." So the cost of capture and the cost of utilization, you know, is lower, you know, at a reasonable run rate when you're making something that you can sell, so they actually love- love the project.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And I guess a f- kind of a follow-up to that now that I'm kinda thinking through what you've told me already is, I guess there's a question in my mind about whether it would be you or whether it would be the manufacturer, you know, the producer of the concrete that you licensed the- the technology to that would be facilitating those credits, right?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, we're gonna facilitate it because we're gonna have all kinds of customers and it could be just one plant that's basically using our tech and the cost of them to monetize them is gonna be far higher than what- what it will cost us, considering we're gonna have a portfolio of storage systems or storage, you know, hosts basically. So, you know, effectively it's in the licensing paperwork.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And so I guess I'll- I'll ask you on each side of the- of the business here. On the- on the side where you're providing an alternative to emissions-heavy concrete, what do the costs look like of using a g- CarbiCrete product versus the incumbent products?

  Chris Stern: So it- the materials cost is lower than regular concrete. So it's, you know, the levelized cost of concrete manufacturing is effectively lower than making regular masonry, so. But to get from here to that point, you know, obviously we've gotta tool up a few- a few customers and that's gonna cost somebody something, so there's gonna be a- a bit of, let's say, help from our side until it becomes, you know, a regular thing.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And when you say tool up, so- so how much does need to be revamped in terms of the way that these customers do things in order for them to be able to incorporate c- CarbiCrete technology?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, and that's basis of why we decided to not raise, you know, lots of capital and build masonry plants because the masonry plant, a CarbiCrete masonry plant versus a regular masonry plant's very similar, except for the curing system. So it's just the curing system that has to change. In a greenfield development, it's the same price, right? It's- because if you're- you're buying a curing system, you're buying a curing system, but for a brownfield, a- an existing customer, they've gotta swap out their curing system. So it's not a c- intensely expensive, but there- there is a cost.

  Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And then on the offsets or the credit side, does there need to be a price on carbon for this model to work? Does it need to be at a certain threshold? Do you know what that number is? Does it work today? Like, kinda where are we and where do we need to be?

  Chris Stern: We designed the business to not rely on carbon credits, so the economics works such that you don't need the carbon credits, but the carbon credits are a bonus. So whatever the- the market, the prevailing prices are, we're gonna take.

  Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And is this a business that could either benefit from or be at risk by policy? And- and if so, in what way?

  Chris Stern: I think we would benefit from some policies. So there's- there are some in- in the States that have come up, like LECCLA in New York and now the bill's on the table in New Jersey. That- that'll benefit a company like ours. I see that and there's gonna be more and more of that, you know? In- in Canada we've got carbon pricing already, which is federally mandated to go up to 170 bucks a ton by 2030, which is awesome. You know, i- it's a no-brainer for people to switch over to our technology in this country because they're gonna be paying extra for their cement, right, because there's a lot of CO2 associated with that and then, you know, they won't get the benefits of sequestering CO2, so it- it's a double hit to their bottom line.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And when you put your head down on the pillow to go to sleep at night these days, as it relates to the business, what's the biggest thing or biggest things that are keeping you up at night?

  Chris Stern: Well, it's- it all comes down to getting customers converted and getting them up and running so that the actual physi- like, the getting down to it part of it, right? So that part, we're working through at this point and that's what this first cluster is all about that we're gonna be building out over the next year. It's getting that process down that we can rinse and repeat afterwards.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And if- if you could wave your magic wand and change one thing that's outside of the scope of your or CarbiCrete's control that would most benefit your business and, ultimately, the decarbonization of concrete, what would it be and how would you change it?

  Chris Stern: Uh, there should be a universal carbon tax and that's not just for us. I mean, just in general, the, like, the- the only way to- to get us out of this climate mess is to have a universal cooperation on what should be the price of carbon and which authority will account for it? So that's the one missing piece and it's not just me hoping for that, it's, like, I would think a lotta people are hoping for that, you know, because it's, uh... Right now we rely too heavily on carbon-emitting industries and the only way to get out of this is through carbon tax because, you know, if it's a fair playing field, then as a group of people, we're gonna figure it out.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And what about just the- the willingness of- of the industry to change? It seems like an industry that's done the things the same way for a long time so, I mean, is there a risk that even though the value proposition unemotionally is better, that the creatures of habit will just resist for, you know, for no good reason other than inertia?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, I mean, that's- that's another thing. I mean, like, look, it's an industry that's been around for 2,500 years so it takes some time to- to get people, you know, across to that, but to all the people I've spoken to, they're gung ho about it. Their customers are asking for it, architects are asking for it, EPCs are asking for lower carbon concrete. You know, there's bonus points, like I said, in New York and New Jersey, as I was saying, so it's- it's- it's gonna be, there's gonna be a customer pull, you know, on- on the precast side. So the uptake w- will be largely dependent on- on those things. But as you said, you know, like it's- y- we still have to educate people, you know, w- as to why they should be doing it.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And other than the price on carbon that you mentioned, I mean, are there technology gaps or things that you wish that others would solve that would help accelerate the path for CarbiCrete?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, so, I mean, a modular direct air capturing system. I am not asking somebody to capture a million tons of CO2 per year because, you know? Each shed of ours needs, you know, five to 10,000 tons per year, right? So a modular direct air capturing system that we can bolt onto ours, like a CarbiCrete plant, would be very well received.

  Jason Jacobs: Nice and have you seen anyone working on such or have you heard about it?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, I mean, like, there's a new direct air capturing company every day, literally. I mean, there's lots of different ideas out there. But, you know, direct air capture's got a ways to go because you're trying to beat the second law of ther- thermodynamics and usually that law wins so, in fact, it always does, so the question is- is how do you get the cost down and the energy consumption or where does the energy come from, to the point where it makes sense?

  Jason Jacobs: So other than the work that you're doing in the concrete industry or concrete in general, if you take a step back and just look at the broader climate problem, what are some of the levers that you think could be most impactful, not just for concrete, but just in general to speed up the t- transition to a decarbonized world?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, the focus should also be place on, you know, like, let's look at all the industries and- and knock 'em off one by one, right? So transportation d- you know, we've got electric vehicles, but that's not gonna completely do it. I think we're gonna need hydrogen and a hydrogen supply system as well and, you know, a whole network, that needs to be developed. That's the first thing that comes to mind.

  Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And b- bouncing around a bit, but back to CarbiCrete, you mentioned how the companies that you sell to, that their customers are- are asking for it. From a marketing or a sales standpoint, I mean, do you spend any time evangelizing to indirect stakeholders that are maybe one or two degrees removed but that can influence things further up the chain?

  Chris Stern: Absolutely. We talk to EPCs and architects all the time and th-they're the ones like, "This is the greatest thing. We need to get this. How do we get this?" That- that's kind of, like, the first words out of their mouth.

  Jason Jacobs: Is that because it's saving the world or is it, like, what is it that's resonating about what you're doing to- to them?

  Chris Stern: They're trying to decarbonize their buildings. I mean, and, you know, if it's, let's say for example, they're trying to get LEED points. I mean, not everybody's looking for LEED points, but this- this adds a lot of points, right, if you use this type of concrete. But beyond that, people are just looking to decarbonize the building industry.

  Jason Jacobs: What's driving them to do that? Is it saving the world or is it mandates or, like, why do they care?

  Chris Stern: Yeah, I mean, I think it- a lot of it is saving the world, but it's also, you know, it comes down to the carbon pricing is- is on the horizon, it's already here in Canada and it's gonna come to the States as well and, uh, you know, it's already in Europe and it's- it's just a fact, it's just a fact. If- if- and if you don't figure it out now, you're gonna be behind the eight ball, effectively, right? So the next guy over is gonna figure it out, so nobody wants to be the musical chairs, you know, the last one to sit down.

  Jason Jacobs: And for anyone listening that's inspired by what you're doing and the importance of the mission, where do you need help? What kinds of people do you wanna hear from?

  Chris Stern: Chemists, engineers, that's the kind of people that we're- we're looking to speak to, you know, as we grow the company and look to deploy more and more projects. People on the carbon financing front, you know? You asked me about venture funding, like, the venture firms that have a focus on carbon or climate and knowledge of where CO2 should go and where the market should go, th- those are the people we wanna talk to because this is the next big thing, really. Getting rid of CO2, out of the atmosphere is gonna be what we're all thinking about for the next 20 or 30 years.

  Jason Jacobs: Is there anything I didn't ask you that I should have or any parting words for our listeners?

  Chris Stern: Look, CarbiCrete does three things. We get rid of an industrial waste byproduct, steel slag, it ends up in land- landfills. We replace cement. You can't decarbonize cement easily. And we get rid of CO2. We put it into blocks and it never, ever comes out. Only if you burn it and nobody burns concrete blocks. So that's the message I want everybody to understand. There's no reason why not to choose CarbiCrete.

  Jason Jacobs: Okay, well, Chris, this was awesome. Thanks so much for coming on the show and best of luck to you and the CarbiCrete team.

  Chris Stern: Thank you very much, Jason.

  Jason Jacobs: Hey, everyone, Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co. Note that is dot C-O, not dot com. Someday we'll get the dot com, but right now, dot C-O. You can also find me on Twitter at jjacobs22 where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And, before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The lawyers made me say that, thank you.