Episode 201: Virginia Sentance, UK COP26 Presidency
Today's guest is Virginia Sentance, Chief of Staff for the UK COP26 Presidency.
Virginia Sentance is the Chief of Staff for the UK COP26 Presidency team based in the UK Government. The UK hosted the 26th UN Climate Change Conference of the Parties (COP26) - the UN's annual climate change summit - in Glasgow on 31 October to 13 November 2021. As Chief of Staff Virginia works closely with the COP President and COP CEO to oversee all aspects of the COP26 Presidency, including the political strategy, negotiations, diplomatic engagement, and operational delivery of the summit. Prior to this, Virginia was an International Economist for the UK Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and HM Treasury - the UK's economic and finance ministry, focusing on a number of international finance issues including G7, G20 and the IMF, financial services, economic security, and trade. Virginia holds a BSc in Politics and Economics and MSc in Politics both from the London School of Economics.
I was excited to have this conversation with Virginia and learn more about COP26. Virginia walks me through her climate journey, the role of COP in a clean future, and why we should pay attention to global carbon commitments. We also dive into the tensions between industry stakeholders and global leaders, COP26's goals and how this COP defined success, and the evolution of science since COP1. Virginia is a great guest with a unique insight into the climate crisis and collective global action. This is a fantastic episode if you want to learn more about the role COPs play in the clean transition.
Enjoy the show!
You can find me on twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@mcjcollective.com, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.
Episode recorded March 9th, 2022
In Today's episode, we cover:
An overview of COP and Virginia's role in COP26
What led Virginia to become climate motivated and her career path to COP26
The bidding process for countries to host COP and what incentivizes a country's desire to host
The process of setting an agenda and defining goals for COP and the key stakeholders who influence these decisions
How the goals of COP26 reinforce keeping global temperatures under 1.5 degrees
How COP26 defined success and the outcomes of the conference
The strategy to ensure global commitment and follow through on climate targets and how to persuade global collective action
The consistency of science from COP1 to COP26 and how it has evolved
The tension between industry stakeholders, world leaders, and scientists and how COPs balance it
How to motivate countries or businesses to make climate commitments and the role of collective good in climate action
Why people should care about COP
How to determine the merit of climate commitments
Barriers, challenges, and progress for future COPs
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Jason Jacobs: Hey everyone, Jason here. I am the, My Climate Journey show host. Before we get going, I wanted to take a minute and tell you about the, My Climate Journey or MCJ, as we call it, membership option. Membership came to be because there were a bunch of people that were listening to the show that weren't just looking for education, but they were longing for a peer group as well. So we set up a slack community for those people that's now mushroomed into more than 1300 members.
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At any rate, if you wanna learn more, you can go to myclimatejourney.co, the website and click to become a member tab at the top. Enjoy the show. Hello everyone, this is Jason Jacobs, and welcome to My Climate Journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests, to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change, and try to figure out how people like you and I can help. Today's guest is Virginia Sentance. Virginia's the Chief of Staff to the COP26 CEO Peter Hill, before her role as chief of staff, she was a Senior Policy Advisor at COP26. I was excited for this one because COP26 and COP in general are so important in the climate world.
Of course, I mean, you can have technology and you can have activism, and you can have changing consumer behavior, and you can have philanthropy, and you can have investment, but at the end of the day countries swing a big bet. Countries need to step up and play their part, and countries need to pressure each other and feed off each other to make big things happen when you're dealing with a problem at the scale, and uh, of the systems nature that addressing climate change is. So in this discussion, we talk about COP, what it is? It's history. Some of the different COPs that have taken place over the years. We talk about what goes in to hosting a COP? Who host it? What the application process looks like to become a host who makes the decisions on who gets a host?
We talk about all the work that went into hosting COP26. We talk about the key goals for COP26. We talk about how they know? How they did against those goals? We talk about the different tactics to get companies to, and countries to step up and do their part. We talk about where we are in addressing the problem, the path forwards, and what COP can do to help, but also what else needs to happen to help us as a species to better address the problem of climate change. This was a delightful discussion, and I also learned a lot, and I hope you do as well. Virginia, welcome to the show.
Virginia Sentance: Hi, thanks for having me, Jason.
Jason Jacobs: Thank you so much for coming. We were just debriefing a little bit before we hit record, and, and you made the comment that there haven't been too many government e-type people on the show, and there's been some, but, but you're right. That's an area that is more outside of my comfort zone, but it's so important for tackling climate change, especially since all of these different elements are so interrelated, and you sit in just such a really interesting spot with COP26 that I was so excited when you agreed to make the time to come on. So thank you.
Virginia Sentance: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited.
Jason Jacobs: Well, I'm a little nervous to be honest, just because as I said, it is more outside of my comfort zone, but with my growth mindset, I'm also really confident that I'm gonna learn so much. And, and again, this is just such an important topic and, and one that a lot of people like me and like our listeners that might come more from the innovation side of the equation or you know, early stage company building and things like that, just don't have as much exposure to, but given how climate motivated I am, and, and so many of them are again, just really helpful to understand. But maybe starting from the top, can you talk a bit about what COP is, and what your role is at COP?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, definitely. So to put very simply, COP is the UN's annual climate change meeting. So every year, a 197 parties as we refer to them, but effectively countries come together to talk about climate change. It's two weeks of really intensive meetings, negotiations, as well as a whole series of discussions in the run up year. So I'm, I'm sure many of your listeners will have heard of the Paris Agreement. So at COP21, Paris held the COP that year, and for the first time ever, countries agree to work together to limit global warming to well below two degrees, and aim for 1.5 degrees Celsius that says, "There's a whole series of different elements that make up the Paris Agreement." But that was a really, really important moment.
So COPs are basically the meeting that allows us to implement this climate change. So that's the kind of simple way of looking at it, but in reality, I think what a COP is, is this really, really crucial mechanism that actually keeps momentum going on climate action. So that rhythm every year means that countries come together and they talk and they make stuff happen, but it's also a way to really hold countries to account. And as the system is developing, we'll, including more and more non-state act to actions, like businesses, regions, cities, already another great way, it's a key thing is about holding them accountable for these commitments.
It's also a really inclusive space, so one of the unique things about a COP and the UN system is that Fiji for example, has much of a voice as France in the room. So it's inclusive, brings people into the room. And lastly, whilst is a very political system, one of the key things is that it's always embedded in that science, and the science behind climate change. So it's a really important bit. So COP26 was a really key COP because it was five COPs on, from the Paris Agreement. It's supposed to be five years on, but unfortunately because of the pandemic we had to postpone by a year. So five years on from the Paris Agreement, countries have made the commitment that they would come forward with their emissions reductions targets.
There's a lot of really sort of painful techy language that comes with us. So they're referred to as nationally determined contributions, but in effect they're five year emissions, reductions targets, and countries said they will come forward with those at COP26. So the scale of COPs is just, is unbelievable. It's something that, I mean, I've been to a few before, but it's something you could, I couldn't comprehend, and so my role as chief of staff is really actually there to just coordinate the priorities of the COP presidency to make everything work effectively, and to ensure that we have a successful COP, this ranged across a huge number [laughs] of areas.
So our overarching strategy is like a really great privilege, I think, to have the chance to host the COP, and a really great responsibility. So what do we actually want to do to drive the climate action? What do we want to prioritize? What do we really think is, the, the things that can actually make a big enough change? So then a sort of major thing is the implementation. So what's our diplomatic strategy in the midst of a pandemic? How do we bring people into the room who are experiencing climate change in the midst of a pandemic? And then actually the strategy for the event itself, it's two weeks of complex and technical negotiations, but it's also a way of actually putting a lot of pressure on the countries.
So putting world leaders in the hot seats, really amazing voices into the room like say David Attenborough, who can talk about his experiences of, of visiting these incredible places in the world, and the impacts of nature. And also making sure that people who have actually impacted, felt the impact of climate change, that can be part of that discussion. Another key element that sort of was one we wrangled with for a long time is how do you actually hold a COP, physically? So a COP has never been held virtually, and we really knew that if you want to make a dent on action and hear from those genuinely impacted by climate change, you have to get everybody in the room.
So that's, well, for our COP, it was 40,000 people and a bespoke vaccination scheme that to make sure that anyone that wanted a vaccination could actually come into the country safely. We deployed about 800,000 COVID tests, I think it was in the end all for free to make sure it's a safe event. And now we've held COP26, and it's all about what do we want that legacy to be? How do you want to actually deliver on all the commitments made at the COP? So as you can see, it's really, really big space, really broad, and it's been a pretty tough journey, I'd say. Definitely not sort of laid out in that, that sort of neat order as perhaps I've described, and a huge team that sits behind it. But my job was ultimately to bring all of those pieces together, and the team together, and make that COP actually happen successfully.
Jason Jacobs: And I have so many questions about COP and COP26, but before we go down that path, can you talk a bit, Virginia about your personal journey, and when and how and why you started caring about climate change in the first place? And then how that translated into finding your way into doing the work that you do today?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, definitely. So I think that for me, like many, my passion for tackling climate change stem from a sort of a appreciation and respect for nature. I think being out to nature is, is the sort of first exposure that you get to the fact that the world is precious, and delicate, and it can be impacted by humans. And I was brought up spending my holidays camping in a pretty rainy, cold UK, swimming in some pretty chilly seas, and scrambling up mountains that are probably hills in the US, I'd say.
And I, I remember at 12 I went on a school trip to Austria, and I was told incorrectly, I want to add, that the tap water isn't safe to drink. And so the entire class was only allowed to drink from a nonstop supply of plastic water bottles for five days. So I collected them all up, and when my dad came to pick me up at the end of the trip from the coach, I presented him with a number of black sacks of plastic water bottles and said, "Let's go to the recycling center." So as I kind of studied more and, and learned, and I started to rejoin the dots more.
So for me in that sort of small town in England, climate change and the environment was about recycling and turning lights off, and the occasional floods. But what I started to realize is that for others all over the world, climate change is a humanitarian crisis. And that, that link between climate change, development and social justice is something that's really driven me, and gave me that sense of purpose for, for what I'm working on. So I, then I studied economics at the London School of Economics, and then Politics and International Relations, for my masters there and went straight into UK government as an international economist, working on a whole, whole series of different areas, labor markets, financial services, multi-naturalism.
And what I realized is that working in government has a lot of challenges. It can be very slow, it can be bureaucratic. It's complicated, it requires a lot of consensus to get things done, but it also comes with really big opportunities if you actually know how to get things done, and can, and can make those things happen. So after the prime minister at the time, Theresa Mary agreed that the UK should bid to host COP26. I was asked to move over to the team and start to build out the team that would work to win the bid for the presidency that sits within the wider prime minister's office. So that was over three years ago now, and yeah, it's, I think as you've had [laughs] then sort of evolved to cover a huge number of areas, and through to the COP itself, and now onto this COP presidency year, through to COP27.
Jason Jacobs: And when you say bid to host the COP26, how does that bidding process work and then who actually makes the selections on who gets to host and, and why might a country want to host in the first place?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, so a different country host every year. So within the UN world, the countries are split into five constituencies. So the UK is part of what's known as WEOG, another great acronym to come out of, out of the UN system. So that stands for Western European and Others Group, which effectively involves Western Europe, the US, Canada, and a few others. So the process is, it really depends basically on different constituencies. So for the WEOG Group, the agreement was done by consensus. So we said that we'd like to, to bid to host, and what you do is a pretty uninventive ideas you write to the UN and you say, "I'd like to bid to host COP26."
And then the WEOG representatives, all sit down and discuss, and Italy had also wanted to bid, and, and so we worked together to create a partnership for the UK. I think there were a couple of reasons that we wanted to, to bid to host. I think one of them is the, the foundations in the UK about the importance of climate change. I'm relieved to say are actually embedded in science right across the political spectrum, and broadly across the public. And there really is that sense of urgency. And there is a sense that this was the most important COP, five years on from the Paris Agreement.
And therefore that really, really mattered, and a country who can, who can really use the m- the multi electrical system, use historical links to other countries, use positive relationships as much as possible could be the right pe- the right country to host in order to actually deliver that action, because a lot of it is in effect about talking to countries, and persuaded them about why climate change matters. And then on the other side, I think it's really important just for, I guess, the recognition of the fact that the UK has a sort of a place in the, in the world that we could really reinforce through hosting COP26.
So it was a positive space that the UK could use those, those relationships internationally and, uh, sort of fitted with, within the wider foreign policy agenda. So this was a reasoning behind the UK. I think there's, well, I guess it, you know, I had to speak to Egypt about their reasoning as I'll be holding COP27, and UAE will be holding COP28, but yeah, so it rotates round every year and, and it definitely sort of plays into a COP actually what it actually looks like.
Jason Jacobs: And when it comes to actually setting the agenda and defining the goals for a given COP, what does that process look like, and what types of stakeholders are involved in that process?
Virginia Sentance: It's a really good question, and it's, it's quite a multifaceted approach and process. So there is a whole set of mandatory work that happens at a COP negotiations, and those are all sort of flowing out of the Paris Agreement, and all of the sessions that have come out of that. But for us as a presidency, what we wanted to say is what really matters, and what do we want to focus on? And for that, the goal of COP26 was that we have to keep 1.5 degrees alive. We just have to. And what that means is introducing, implementing, announcing the right policies that will limit that rise to global temperature to 1.5 degrees. So that implementation and the, those commitments, and all of that work spread right across the different elements of COP.
Jason Jacobs: And the, the keeping one and a half degrees alive. So that decision that that's what COP26 needed to be about, is it to host a country that gets to make that determination?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah. So it's a mixture. So one of the key things with hosting COP is that there's 197 parties to the Paris Agreement, 197 parties in the UNFCCC, and bringing all of those along is really, really important. So I think we are welcomed by the UNFCCC of having quite an ambitious agenda, and saying like, "This is the year, this is when we make something happen." But there's also the framework of the Paris Agreement that sits behind that. And that is the, so that's rec- I mean, that's, that's agreed by all these 197 parties. So that's recognized as a framework, and that has the sort of three pillars of mitigation, adaptation of finance.
So we knew this overarching goal was about keeping 1.5 degrees alive, but within that, there are the negotiations to the implementation of the Paris Rulebook, for example, which is about how do you actually implement the Paris Agreement? Or there's things like sector announcements, and business announcements, and different meetings to bring together voices, to talk about nature and oceans, all these different areas. But the overarching framework that we wanted to work in was this, the Paris Agreement, which is the mitigation, adaptation of finance and keeping that 1.5 degrees alive is the most important thing.
Jason Jacobs: And switching gears then. So if that becomes the overarching theme of COP26, what about the actual goals of COP26 that will then drive to that? What does that process look like in terms of definition, and what were the goals of, of COP26 in order to help reinforce keeping one and a half degrees alive?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah. So I would say there is no set way about approaching these things, and that's one of the, that's one of the great things we had about the presidency, is that we sit down regularly with the UNFCCC to talk about what we can do and how we can achieve it, and what the priorities are? And, and that's one of the interesting things, for example, about post COP26, is that we are working really closely with Egypt and with UNFFCCC still to actually, to actually still play that leadership role, and still push that climate action.
So there isn't necessarily a set way, but there is a set of mandated agenda items that we're required to cover. And then we, what we did is look at the science, and we gather together all the experts that we can find on climate change, we put together a group that we call the “Friends of COP” full of scientists, researchers, business leaders, academics, previous leaders of COPs. We put that together and we said, "Look, we know what the science says, what do you think we need to do?" And we pulled that into one, one space, and, and that was still within this framework. They were thinking about the three pillars, the Paris Agreement implementing those.
And because of the flexibility we have, one of the things that we were able to do is think about how do we structure the COP itself, and sort of choreograph it in order to land, as many outcomes as possible that can genuinely have an impact on climate change. So for the first time ever, we at a COP, we had, uh, every single day was themed across the different area that could have a really genuine impact on climate change. So we had an energy day, a nature day, a transport day, a youth and empowerment day, uh, science and innovation day.
And all of these different moments, what we do is create that political momentum and that political pressure, and use all the diplomatic networks to actually say, "This is what we think." And the science says, and all the experts say, "We'll actually have an impact on 1.5 degrees, and we as presidency want you to, to make this happen, and we want to bring you all together on this day at COP in order to make an impact in this area."
Jason Jacobs: And how do you know if you were to look down each of these areas coming out of COP26, whether you achieved what you set out to in each of these areas? What's does success look like, and how is that defined?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, that's a very, very good question [laughs], when we have wrangled with, for quite a while. So ultimately there is no sort of clear definition of what success looks like because we set ourselves the exam question of limiting warming to 1.5 degrees. That's what we could really try and use to measure. There's ultimately a package of different elements that made up our COP. So before the Paris Agreement, for example, the scientists were saying that the chance of, that there's a chance, the temperatures could actually rise to six degrees, which would obviously be completely devastating.
The pledges under the Paris Agreement, put the world on track to about 2.7 to 3.7 degrees. And it's those kind of, um, independent scientists that can help to really sort of say, "Did we make the right choices? Did we prioritize the right things? Did we push the right countries to come forward?" That the climate action tracker is one of those, and their conclusion out of COP is that, if the commitments made at COP are implemented, then one, we will be kept to below two degrees at about 1.8 degrees. But the really key thing there is the if, if they're implemented? So we had, of course, based on analysis, a whole sort of, a whole series analysis about which reason matter? Which businesses matter? Which kind of commitments do we want to get?
So like for example, we had 65 countries that agreed to phase out carbon, and that included Indonesia, Vietnam, Poland, South Korea, it's like those are some pretty big hitters, and pretty big coal users. And so the analysis says that if they phase that out, that's a really good thing, but that if is really important thing. And that's one of the, the questions that I'm focusing on now, is yes, success is the, the analysis says that, 1.5 degrees is still in reach, but the work isn't over at all. We now need to like work really, really hard, to work out how to implement these commitments. And that's where the legacy of COP26 is a really important thing because we don't wanna be in a year's time to find there's been no progress on those commitments at all.
Jason Jacobs: And one of the things that people talk about at the individual behavior change level is that people will act in their self-interest at the end of the day, and that if they can act in their self-interest and also act in a collective good then great, but if the collective good works against their personal self-interest, then it's a losing battle. I'm imagining that the same is true with countries. And you mentioned that part of the mandate at COP is to actually pressure countries, to get them to agree to bolder commitments. How does that manifest? Who is pressuring? Is it you that's pressuring the countries? Is it other countries that are pressuring each other? What is the, the strategy there and from whom, and how does that play out in practice?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, it's complicated, which I feel like I'm starting all of my [laughs], all of my sentences with, it's definitely really complicated. And this is where it gets really difficult because every single country has a different domestic situation, every single country's different. It almost feels like every solution has to be bespoke, but there's a, there's a couple of element, so I think the... It's, what are the frameworks and mechanisms that can be used globally to drive forward progress? So there's a series of existing mechanisms that are within the UNFCCC, and we, as the co-presidency also established a number of effectively ministerial meetings that support that delivery.
So you can share best practice, you can set standards, you can advise on regulations. A lot of these are quite technocratic to energy transition council, as that council, the different ministerial sessions that, that can provide that, that support, and those frameworks, and mechanisms for making, for making things happen. But the second thing is about finance flowing. So there were some really, really positive commitments from COP about actually getting finance flowing to the transition, but how do we actually get that flowing? It's really important that those funds get moving, and this is where you end up in a lot of technical difficulties, about who's eligible, where's it going, how you measure the, the success of the finance.
But without that finance, you obviously can't deliver some of the major projects that are needed, but it also can undermine some of the credibility to demonstrate that if a developed country makes a commitment on finance, a supported developing country's commitments, then that money will actually flow to help the transition. So getting that finance flowing is a really key thing. And then as I mentioned about the climate action tracker, for example, there's different sort of reports and analysis that we can use that can demonstrate that progress is being made, and in the government, there's a sort of political sphere that actually has a really, really big impact. And there's, they're sort of globally recognized, their science-based reports, and they can really almost put a country on the spot and, and can help to reinforce whether something's moving forward and being implemented.
But key to this is that all has to be undermined, undermined, underpinned [laughs] sorry, by, um, political momentum. So like the COPs themselves are political momentum. So the fact that a COP is every year and that, uh, sort of drives that change, and... But there's also a whole series of different moments through the year that, that we can use, and we, we hope that our allies, allies can be used to drive some of that, that progression and implementation. So for example, the G7 and G20 leader level meetings, the UN General Assembly that happens every year, Biden has brought back the Major Economies Forum, for example, all of those moments that they drive that political momentum that pushes countries to implement these changes, and sort of hold them to account.
Jason Jacobs: And given that this was COP26 and not COP1, there's been quite a few COPs that have occurred. How consistent has the science been from COP to COP over the years? And if you, where we sit now in your view, how, how settled is the science versus continuing to evolve from year to year as we learn and observe more about what's happening with the planet?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, I mean, the science is only getting starker, and only sort of showing the, the time is running out, and the, the urgency is the most important thing. So the IPCC is the scientific body for climate change, and it's linked to the UN, and it has a representatives, the scientific, scie- scientists from each government who are part of the Paris Agreement are part of this body, and it produces regular reports on the sites of climate change. The most recent report came out in February and focused on the impacts of climate change. And it's devastating. It's absolutely devastating. It shows that there could be about 3.3 to 3.6 billion people. I think it was by 2,100, who could be feeling devastating impacts of climate change.
And similarly before COP26 in August the IPCC report on the science behind climate change came out. And again, it just, it demonstrated that the urgency of action. If the time is running out and unless we act now, then we are heading towards catastrophe. And the, the thing is that those science-based reports provide a foundation for every single COP. And the key thing with them is that first of all, they include all parties to the Paris Agreement. So scientists from all over the world are part of the creation of these reports, and that they're globally recognized as the body. And that what they're doing is they're reinforcing all those messages, and they allow science to be the basis of the decisions that we made, and that, so it's, it is really, really important thing, are those IPCC reports.
Jason Jacobs: And you mentioned that you're starting to not just get world leaders, but other key stakeholders involved from industry and scientists, and otherwise when it relates to industry in particular, I can see it both ways in the sense that on the one hand, if industry is not represented, they swing a big bat and play an important role, and so it would be important to have representation, but I can't help, but also worry that that representation can manifest in just like army of lobbyists pushing an agenda that advocates in their own self-interest at the expense of the collective good. Is, is that tension real? And, and how do you balance that?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, that tension is very real. So within the UN system, within UNFCCC system, there is a champion, Nigel Topping was the UK champion, and their role in is to bring businesses into the climate action movement. Nigel has done an incredible job on this, and set up to bespoke schemes or frameworks as such to drive industry action in the right direction. So race is zero, and race and resilience about mitigation, about adaptation. And those are again embedded in the science. I know I keep saying this, but by embedding everything in the science, what we can do is create that consensus around the climate action. So there's organization called Science Based Targets initiative that that says, "To... For each industry, what does a good commitment look like from you?"
Um, as a presidency, we were actually really, really strict. And we, we said that we would not welcome business leaders to our panels or to anything that involved COP26 branding, unless they had set a science-based target. And that was, that was a great thing. I think it really mobilized people because when a COP happens, it really is like the place people want to be at, the number of people who want to join, and be part of that conversation. But in order to like make that conversation sort of have a meaning, we had to sort of drive that action from every single person that was coming through the door. So by setting that really to high standards, we had a huge number. I mean, so 90% of the world's GDP now has a net zero commitment.
And I, I think some of that comes down to the fact that there are these frameworks that, that businesses can sign up to you so they can say, "What does good actually look like?" I don't think we're sort of past the stage in any way about getting this completely right. So in the same way, the issue with country commitments is the implementation. It's the exact same question now about businesses and industry, the implementation of those commitments. And so that's a really big priority that the champions under Nigel Topping, his team will take forward. But we do have to set these standards, and we have to draw a line somewhere and say that we can't just be subject to lobbying and interest groups, but we have to see something on the cards, on the table from them as well.
Jason Jacobs: And whether it's a country or a business, when they are setting these bold targets, what's motivating them to do so? I mean, how big a role does the collective good play or, or is it personal stuff? Is it brand halo of, of stepping out and being bold? Is it the fear of repercussions if they aren't bold enough, or regulation, or mandates, or I guess what are the most impactful tools looking forwards? But I also, what have been the most impactful tools looking backwards in terms of what drives people to act?
Virginia Sentance: So I think it's a bit of everything really, but one of the, one of the really important things is that for me, this transition is inevitable. The transition to a clean economy is inevitable, and all the economics is saying that, and all the security arguments are saying that as well. So is an inevitable transition. And the more that the economic says that, the more you are likely to drive businesses and industry in the right direction, but I wouldn't underestimate the power of people, and the sort, sort of people's voice. I think you'll see that young people, for example, are getting angrier and angrier and want to see action.
And I think they sort of can feel justified about that. And young people are voting with their feet, now, they're moving away from businesses that they don't think have a green agenda. They are moving their money as more much as they can. They're voting in the right ways, linked to the climate agenda. So the economics is there, but, and, and other arguments, but I, I wouldn't underestimate the, the power of, of people saying, "This is what matters to us as consumers and as the recipients of these, these industries."
Jason Jacobs: Well, that, that leads to a natural fire follow-up question which is, so you're talking about climate urgency and people that care, and then them putting pressure in getting people to act. How much should the general population care about COP in terms of how it can affect them, but also how much should the general population feel like they can impact what happens at COP, if they're inclined to help.
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, that's a great question. So people absolutely should care about what happens as a COP. As I said, I think the green economy transition is inevitable, is just how we get there and how fast we get there. And one of the things that is, is interesting, is the prevalence of climate in every single industry now, in every single space. So it used to be, I think if you wanted to work in climate change, you were a scientist who, I am very scientific about it and, but now we see, we see climate and the green agenda popping up everywhere. So in technology, and health, and education, of course all over business.
And so people, people should care, COPs can seem like quite a complex and technical space, and everything that's being discussed there will, I think, impact people day-to-day. And so that's why it's really important to make sure that people can actually access a COP and get into a COP, and have an inclusive COP. So one of the things about COP systems is that there is a space for protests. There is a physical space put aside within the COP building for protests, and that's a really, really important thing. And it's also something we really prioritize. So for every single panel we put on, we made sure that there was a young person, or someone who was there who could really talk about how climate change impacts them, and make sure that someone's voice could be heard that isn't the, the obvious person that can get their way through the door.
So it's really, really important that the, the messages that coming from COPs get out as far and, and wide as possible. One of the methods is actually about who do we invite to a COP? So for example, so David Attenborough joined us for the World Leaders Summit, and he spoke to 120 world leaders, a fantastic documentary footage behind him. And that was picked up all over media. And what that, that message he said was like, this matter's now, this is why? This is an urgent issue. This is what we need to do. This is why you are here in this COP to act? And that message was spread globally. That was all over social media. And it really sort of put the COP, and the importance of this on the map.
Jason Jacobs: And you, you talked before about the importance of bold commitments, and in my mind take offsets as an example, there's a difference between an offset that is high quality that has permanence, that has transparency, that has true additionality versus one that might be cheaper, but you know, isn't real, right? Or isn't doing the job that it was set out to do. So when I hear about these commitments, in my mind, there's a difference between a commitment that's just a big, bold commitment, but an empty suit versus a commitment that has a really well, thought out stage, transparent plan with clear interim targets, and accountability against those targets as well. Are the plans to fulfill these commitments, something that also gets assessed when determining the merit of the commitment itself?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah. So there's, in a couple of different ways that we can try and think about the plans. One of them are these, these independent NGOs, and think tanks, and civil society who do an amazing job at critiquing all of the commitments that are made. And I cannot emphasize how important that independent critique is to the system. On the other side within government, what we're trying to do is set up these systems that allow, that allow the best practice to be shared. Say for example, creating frameworks and roadmaps about how do you actually implement your commitment, bringing ministers together and bringing us these civil servants in all the different governments over the world together to actually talk about how do you... What is a good framework? What is a good roadmap actually look like to deliver on the commitment?
So you can really end up in quite technocratic discussions, but those have to happen. And then the third ele- element is actually, how do you use the UN system to ensure the implementation? And to, again, it's, it's quite a sort of technical thing, but we have, what's called a Global Stocktake coming up in 2023, where countries are required to report on what they're doing. One of the elements to sort of reflect the urgency on that. That was a really important thing out of COP26, is that usually countries come forward every five years with their commitments. They're gonna come forward in one year time, one year's time. So before COP27 with their emission reduction commitments, and those will then feed into this 2023 stock tape, which will say how you actually implementing it? Are you doing a good job? Is it being committed to? Or is it being actually delivered in practice?
Jason Jacobs: And so for the commitments that were made, five COPs ago, where countries came to COP26 report on their progress, is the progress aga- against the commitment audited with the same scrutiny as the initial commitment itself?
Virginia Sentance: Again, it's, it's using these independent reports. So their most important one is, is read as the NDC Synthesis report. So it synthesizes all of the NDCs, which are those short-term emissions targets. And what it does is sort of, it basically brings them all together and says, "What's the actual result of warming?" Another, a really positive thing that our COP26 is that this NDC Synthesis report is now gonna be every year. And that kind of speeding up to the pace of climate action, so important to reflect that urgency.
And there's consideration about, could you include the policies that make up that high level commitment when you count up what the impact is? Because of course the UN has to really like get it right, and really has to, has to make sure there's no question to what they're saying in this report, but there is a sort of way that we can progress them. So that having that report every year really pushes that progress.
Jason Jacobs: And looking forwards, what do you think that the next COP can do to build upon the progress and momentum that has been established to date, and by the same token, what do you worry about? Or what are some of the barriers that are inhibiting the next COP from being successful, or that might prove to be challenges that they need to figure out how to overcome?
Virginia Sentance: Yeah, so it's, it's definitely, it's not an easy task holding a COP [laughs]. I can confirm from experience, it's really difficult. So Egypt and UAE have a, a difficult task ahead, but the most important thing that they need to do is remember this headline goal of urgently keeping 1.5 degrees alive. And so what we did in the, in the outcome note from COP26, referred to as the Glasgow Climate Pact, is speed up that pace of climate action to reflect that urgency. So having countries come forward with their commitments every year, instead of five years. So the, the priority has to be putting the pressure on countries to revisit is the specific language, revisit their emissions, reduction targets and strengthen them if necessary.
And that has to be the priority for the Egyptian presidency, but equally the focus has to be on this implementation and delivery. And that's where we, we get into all those difficulties about how do you make sure the finance is flowing? How do you make sure the frameworks and mechanisms are in place to share the best practice, the political momentum, and actually the measuring at the progress around using all this independent analysis. So I guess that's my objectives [laughs] for them, but also my worries, my worries are, are very similar is about, about actually translating commitments into implementation. And of course we are now in a once again in an extremely difficult circumstance.
So when we won the bid for COP26, it was only a few months later that the pandemic started, and we had to make the decision to postpone COP. And now Egypt have, are starting their presidency, and thinking about COP27, and a lot of the world's eyes are, are rightly on the, on the terrible situation happening in Ukraine. So again, it is a really tricky situation. The key thing is that climate action, that climate change does not stop. And so climate action cannot stop either.
Jason Jacobs: If you could change one thing that is outside of the scope of your control or even COPs control that would most accelerate our progress on addressing the problem of climate change, what would you change, and how would you change it?
Virginia Sentance: So COPs have done their best to incorporate as much as possible related to climate [laughs] change in [inaudible 00:43:47]. It's a, a bit of a difficult question, I guess, thinking about, I know a lot of your, your listeners are from business and so industry and corporate space. So my, I guess my main message would be embeds, climate change and net zero into everything you do from minute one. It cannot be an after thought. So if you're thinking about your business strategy for the year, or your business planning, or what your priorities are, net zero has to be included in that right at the top.
Uh, it's not technically outside the scope of a COP, but [laughs] as I said, they... It's, it's really done, it's supposed to, to cover as much as possible a race to climate change. But yeah, I think that's something that, that everyone can think about in their, in their day-to-day jobs and, and everybody can incorporate into, into what they're doing and what they're thinking about.
Jason Jacobs: And is there anything I didn't ask that I should have, or any parting words for listeners?
Virginia Sentance: Well, I just think this, yeah, it's been really great to speak and great to have the opportunity to talk, and hopefully shed a bit of light on what is often quite a complicated and full of acronyms process. And so thank you so much for having me and I, I hope it's, it's been useful, and would be great to hear any follow-up questions from listeners about it. Hopefully I'll, I'll try and remember what all the acronyms stand for.
Jason Jacobs: Well, it was amazing to have you on, I learned so much. I, I hope that this kind of demystifies COP for so many listeners who, like me understand how important it's, but just haven't been as close to it as, as we want to be. And thank you so much for all the important work that you do and, and have done with COP26, and wishing for the continued momentum and success heading into COP27, and beyond.
Virginia Sentance: Thanks so much, Jason.
Jason Jacobs: Hey everyone, Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co, note that is .co not .com. Someday we'll get the .com, but right now .co. You can also find me on Twitter @jjacobs22, where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The words maybe say that, thank you.
