Episode 146: Sarah Saltzer, Managing Director of the Stanford Center for Carbon Storage at Stanford University
Today's guest is Sarah Saltzer, Managing Director of the Stanford Center for Carbon Storage.
The Stanford Center for Carbon Storage focuses on applied and fundamental research to address critical questions around carbon storage in geological formations. The team also works on technological and economic analysis, public policy research, and carbon storage projects around the world.
Before joining Stanford, Sarah spent 25 years at Chevron. She worked across exploration, development, production, clean-up, and internal auditing for the oil & gas company. Sarah has taken on various roles in geology, engineering, and research. As Managing Director of the Center for Carbon Storage, Sarah is involved in guiding research activities, teachings, business development, grant writing, and general operations. Sarah holds a Ph.D. in Geology from Stanford and an MS and BS in Geology from MIT.
Sarah walks me through her time at Chevron, her current position at Stanford, and what motivated her to focus on carbon storage. Sarah's wealth of knowledge and experience leads to a lively discussion about how carbon capture and storage works, where oil and gas companies fit into the climate fight, and the future of the industry. This episode is awesome for those interested in the carbon storage landscape.
Enjoy the show!
You can find me on Twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@myclimatejourney.co, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.
Episode recorded February 10th, 2021.
In Today's episode we cover:
What led Sarah to focus on climate
Sarah's time spent at Chevron
The Stanford Center for Carbon Storage and Sarah's role as Managing Director
How carbon capture works, the existing projects, and where the sector is from a cost perspective
The carbon capture landscape, where we are now, and where we need to go
Big oil's role in the clean energy transition
The effectiveness of carbon capture as a long-term solution
The biggest factor in driving the cost of carbon capture down
The role each agent has in developing more carbon capture solutions from government to big oil to startup innovations
How the US stacks up against other countries in terms of carbon capture projects
Advice Sarah has for recent geology graduates
Links to topics discussed in this episode:
Why Carbon Capture Hasn't Saved Us From Climate Change Yet: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-carbon-capture-hasnt-saved-us-from-climate-change-yet/
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Hello everyone, this is Jason Jacobs and welcome to My Climate Journey.
This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests, to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change and try to figure out how people like you and I can help.
Today's guest is Sarah Saltzer, managing director of the Stanford Center for Carbon Storage, which manages carbon emissions research using a multi disciplinary approach. Sarah brings 25 years of experience at Chevron Corporation where she held a series of scientific managerial and executive roles. She has diversity of experience in roles of increasing responsibility including geology research and teaching, petroleum engineering on massive off-shore fields. Bidding for off-shore parcel exploration rights, leading exploration teams and a number of others. Sarah holds a PhD from Stanford and MS and BS degrees from MIT and has published her work in Pure Review journals in corporate annual reports.
I was excited for this one because carbon capture and storage is both a very important area and also one that is quite controversial. We cover a lot in this episode including CCS and what it is, how to think about it, how long it's been around, it's progress to date, some of the barriers holding it back, and we also talk about some of the ethics around the future of energy, oil and gasses role historically and going forward. Some of the concerns that critics have of CCS and whether Sarah believes that those concerns are warranted.
Sarah, welcome to the show.
Sarah: Hi, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jason: Well, I'm so excited for you to be here. Carbon storage is such an important topic and it's one that as a relative newcomer to focusing on climate change over the last two or two and a half years, I came in with zero understanding of. And- and even now I would say maybe just a little bit to be dangerous, but it's such an important one and one that I'm dying to know more about. So thanks so much for making the time to lend your perspective to me and to the other MCJ listeners.
Sarah: Great. Well thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Happy to talk about carbon storage. Very important as we go forth.
Jason: Well, what we typically do on the show is that we start just be kind of getting a snapshot of where you sit and what you're working on currently. But before we then get too far down that path, then we kind of go back in the way machine and talk about more the origin story and stuff. But to kick things off, maybe talk a little bit the Center for Carbon Storage at Stanford and with the work that you're doing.
Sarah: I'm the managing director of the Stanford Center for Carbon Storage and basically this is a group of faculty at Stanford that are multi disciplinary in their technical backgrounds and they conduct fundamental research and also applied research to address really critical questions around CO2 storage in geologic formations. We also do techno-economic analysis which is a blending of technology and economic kinds of analysis and also policy and regulatory assessment of CCS projects around the world.
And I'm involved in guiding research activities, teaching, some business development, grant writing, and anything else to basically keep the center running and afloat.
Jason: And when you say, CO2 storage in geologic formations, maybe talk a bit about what that's for and why it matters.
Sarah: Well, let's talk about what we mean by CCS, Carbon Capture and Storage, and basically there are three steps involved in this. The first thing is capturing the CO2. So you need to go to where the CO2 is being emitted. So you can go to power plants, refineries, cement plants, et cetera and install some carbon capture equipment. And basically with this equipment, the emissions get routed through a vessel that has a liquid kind of solvent in it, which essentially absorbs the carbon dioxide and then you put it in another tower called a stripper or a regenerator and that removes the carbon dioxide. And then the solvent just gets reused again and again.
So now you have your CO2 and now you have to do something with it. And typically the next thing you have to do is to transport it to your storage site. So there are some cases where your storage site happens to be co located with where your emissions are being emitted. But typically you need to invoke a pipeline of some sort and so pipelines are how we efficiently move this CO2 from where we capture it, to where we store it.
And to do that, you actually have to compress the CO2 a lot and basically get it into a super critical state. And this is where it kind of behaves like both a fluid and a gas and that actually makes it so you have much less volume that you have to transport and it helps it travel more efficiently through the pipe.
Unfortunately you can't use an existing pipe that's just there for say, natural gas or some other product, we need special CO2 pipelines. So then you transport it. And then the final part is the storage part and the goal is to inject the CO2 into the underground, either for permanent storage or for enhanced oil recovery. You can actually use the CO2 and push some oil out of the ground.
But basically geologic formations are suitable for long term storage of CO2. And the reason we know this is because for example, oil fields which originally had all of the oil and gas, efficiently stored oil and gas because you know have the porosity and the reservoir parameters necessary for that, and it's the same kinds of situations then which are good for storing CO2. And in addition with CO2 you can put it in what we call saline reservoirs. And these are additional uh, layers of geologic rock, which maybe didn't have oil and gas in them historically for whatever reason. Many of them still also have a lot of the necessary characteristics you would want to store CO2. So there are many opportunities where we can store CO2, we just need to study the various opportunities and evaluate them and assess which ones make sense for storing CO2. And that's what we do at the center.
Jason: I'm going to try to maybe paraphrase and summarize just as a way to make sure that I understand it. And so basically there are things that we can do to reduce the emissions of carbon that we produce, but in the cases where things need to continue to emit maybe it's a hard to decarbonize sector, maybe it'll take years or decades, or longer to convert from existing infrastructure or things like that and in the interim, when the carbon is emitted you can capture it at the point of emission. You can transport it and then you can store it securely, underground either permanently or for reuse through things like EOR.
Sarah: Absolutely. You got it. Perfect.
Jason: Great. So just before we get too far down the path there, because there's a long way we could go there, I want to just talk a little bit about your origin story and kind of what led you to carbon storage in the first place. When you were a school girl, did you dream of focusing on carbon storage when you grew up? [laughs]
Sarah: [laughs] No. But I was a geology major at my undergrad school which was Massachusetts Institute of Technology-
Jason: Nice.
Sarah: ... and then I did get a PhD in geology at Stanford. So I was interested in geology, I was always interested in the outdoors and hiking and I think that sort of got my love of geology going. After graduating from Stanford with the PhD I actually went to work for Chevron, a major oil company and the oil industry is a major employer of a lot of the geologists that graduate. And I saw it as a great opportunity to put my skills to work in providing energy. And energy is a very important commodity for the world, and basically in my career at Chevron I ended up moving around quite a bit, whereas I thought when I started that I would be a career geologist, I found that I actually had quite a short attention span and I ended up moving from being a geologist to being a petroleum engineer, into business planning, into remediation and then into corporate reserves.
So I moved around quite a bit into different areas. I had job stints that were in exploration, in development, in production, in cleaning up some of the historic sites that Chevron was involved in. And then finally ended up in a position where I was basically auditing our internal books to confirm that what we said we had on the ground that we felt we could get out, which is what is the reserves of an oil company, I ended up being responsible for about a quarter of the globe to ensure that we were doing it properly. And that's a very important job in an oil company because it's the reserves that are typically what drive a lot of the value for an oil company. So you want to really make sure that you have that number right. So we've got ... an oil company has internal and external people all looking at that.
I ended up retiring a couple years ago when my job moved to Texas, but I had a high school daughter that did not want to move. So at that point, I was still in contact with folks that were at Stanford and talked with them a little bit about this opportunity to manage the Stanford Center for Carbon Storage, and what's really neat about it is it utilizes a lot of the skills that I developed over my career at Chevron, planning, sub-service skills, geology skills, it even involves the petroleum engineering skills. It takes all those skills and wraps them up and uses them in a very similar kind of position, but on the other side of the energy equation. More on the green side. So that's really exciting.
Jason: Well, I want to dig in and talk about CCS specifically, but maybe a few qualifying questions before we do, just to kind of set the stage for that discussion and to help me and listeners get a better handle on your perspective on the matter.
So one is just, I mean you spent 25 years at Chevron and from my seat, and keep in mind, I'm only two and a half years in to focusing on these topics, and I don't have a horse in the race. I mean I just want to help address climate change in the most impactful way as possible. But there's maybe a segment of the environmental community that I think demonizes the oil majors and they talk about how we need to get off oil as soon as possible. They talk about how these companies need to die. They talk about all the evil deeds that they've done and they need accountability. And then, on the other side, I think, I mean the industrial revolution, there's much good that's come from that as a civilization and energy has really been what's made all that possible. And these are real humans that are working hard, that take pride in their careers, and power our global economy which keeps the lights on and puts food on the table and everything else.
At the same time, there have been some misdeeds and misleading and lies and scheming behind the scenes and trade groups and all this other stuff. So a- as kind of an objective observer like, I'm just trying to sort through it, like as someone who spent 25 years on the inside, what do you think about big oil in terms of their accountability for the past and their role in the future of the clean energy transition?
Sarah: I can speak more to role in the future because I think they actually have a fairly huge role in the future in a number of areas. The oil industry employs a number of people in the down stream sector, so sort of on the refining ends of things, people like process engineers and things. They're uniquely positioned to help us better address the carbon capture issues out there. Big oil companies employ people in pipelines and often have pipeline companies. So they're uniquely positioned to help to site new pipelines, build new pipelines, design pipelines, manage them and operate them.
And then oil companies also employ your drillers, your geologists, your geophysicists, your petroleum engineers, your simulation folks that all understand the sub surface. So they're a uniquely again, qualified to help develop CO2 storage sites. So I see that the oil companies, and by oil companies, I also include the service companies, the Schlumbergers, Baker Hughes, et cetera and Halliburtons, that are also uniquely positioned to help on all of these three parts of the value chain.
So I see them having a potentially very large role going forward in CCS projects.
Jason: So we've talked about the companies themselves, what about burning fossil fuels. Do we need to get off of those as quickly as possible?
Sarah: Of course that is some of the major foes of CCS. The environmentalists would like us to just eliminate the use of fossil fuels entirely. And one of the issues that they have is that CCS is seen to extend the life of fossil fuels. The issue is that we have dual challenge. We want to provide energy and fossil fuels do provide energy, but we also want to mitigate climate change. And I'm just going to use California as an example because we've recently completed a major study of CCS opportunities in California. And California ... well California has some very ambitious climate goals which are wonderful. And one of the sub climate goals is a goal of nett zero electricity in the grid by 2045. And you can do that by-
Jason: Hey Gordon, from OPM came on the show. We recorded yesterday by the way. Just so you know.
Sarah: Okay. Great.
Jason: So we talked about that.
Sarah: Okay. Perfectly. And, so you can achieve that by building a lot of wind and solar and batteries. And that's going to cost a lot of money. You can also do it by building some wind and solar and batteries but maybe a more modest amount and also employing some CCS. Some Carbon Capture Equipment on some of the power plants and then storing the CO2. And you can do it for a significantly reduced cost. So, one of the things that we try to balance is, what are all the options? What should you do first? And, what makes most sense financially?
And I think that we just need to consider all of those options as we move forward. Another thing that CCS allows is, in the transition as we reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, is CCS can also be used with some nett zero uh, negative emissions technologies for example, backs BAC's, bioenergy with CCS where you take bio mass and combust it and then store the CO2. Or DAC, Direct Air Capture, which are basically huge arrays of fans that can be set up to capture CO2 directly from the air. But that also requires storing the CO2.
So CCS applied to traditional fossil fuel projects may be something that we do in the near term. But going forward there are options for CCS for these other nett zero negative emissions technologies as well.
Jason: And so when you think directionally, CCS a long-term solution?
Sarah: Absolutely. Because these other things like BAC's and DAC are absolutely long-term solutions.
Jason: So now coming back around to actually digging in, looking under the hood of CCS, if you will, where are we with CCS in its evolution?
Sarah: So CCS has been around since the 70s. In fact we've been injecting CO2 into the sub-services the 70s. Oil companies have been doing this as a way to extract more oil from the sub-service because what you can is inject some CO2 and push some of the remaining oil out. But we've also been storing CO2 permanently since the 70s as well. Currently around the world, there are 21 projects that are up and running. 10 of those are in the US. But let's talk a little bit now then about the volumes of CO2 we're talking about.
The current CO2 emissions each year are around 32 billion tons. So 32 billion, not million but billion. The current projects that we have up and running, the 21 that I mentioned, they store 32 million tons a year. So our problem is at 37 billion ton problem and we're storing 32 million. So we're off by three orders of magnitude here. There are currently another 60 projects that are in the pipeline, but to be honest we really need a couple thousand by 2040. That's huge.
So we know how to do it, we've been doing it for a while, the technology is there. We just need to do more of it. And we clearly have a ways to go. Our current growth rate like new projects are being announced all the time. Our current growth rate is somewhere around 10% a year and it really needs to double to something like 20% or more per year if we want to meet the agreement set forth in the Paris accords of keeping global warming to 2 degrees C.
Jason: And could you maybe provide one or two examples of some of these projects to be illustrative, to bring to life the 21 and the 60 and the thousands that we'll need. Like what do these projects actually look like and encompass? Who delivers them and what are the criteria that makes a good project?
Sarah: Well there're all different kinds of projects. In the mid west we have some where they're capturing CO2 at ethnol plants and then they tend to find storage sites that are nearby or within a decent distance and inject the CO2 into the sub-service. And either typically in the mid west, it's in [inaudible 00:19:06] or in ... for enhanced oil recovery. Wyoming is really kind of uniquely situated. They have a number of coal burning power plants. They also have a CO2 pipeline that runs diagonally across the state. And they have a number of partially and fully depleted oil fields and so there is quite a bit of capturing the CO2 from those coal fire power plants, putting it in the CO2 pipeline and getting it to these former oil fields. Either for permanently storage or EOR. And there are also projects in Texas of a similar kind of nature.
So we have all kinds of projects. Those are just a couple examples from the US, but there are projects all over the world.
Jason: And can you talk a little bit about where we are from a cost standpoint today? Where we need to get to and then what some of the biggest levers are that we have to bring those costs down over time?
Sarah: Costs are the biggest concern. And it's really the real thing that is keeping CCS from really taking off in a big way. Capture costs are not cheap. For ethanol which is a fairly pure stream of CO2, it's easier to capture, less technology is required. You can do that for about $20 a ton. And then cement you can do for maybe 50 or 60 a ton. And then you get up to some of your power plants, your combined cycle power plants and they can be more like 70 or 80 dollars a ton.
And so those ones are a little bit harder to make the numbers all work. So it is different uh, industries do definitely have different capture costs associated with them and that is problematic. Transportation costs actually are not all that high now. Getting a pipeline up and built and all that process is probably very involved, but the actual transportation costs are uh, some are less than $10 a ton, and storage costs are actually not that great. They can be fairly low, five to 10 dollars a ton as well.
So it's really on the capture side of things that we need to find ways to bring costs down.
Jason: And you talked about the costs versus each other, but m- also mentioned that the current costs are problem. Where do the costs need to be and why? What are they trying to unseat?
Sarah: Not entirely certain what your question is but we need to find a way to drive costs down to incentivize companies to install carbon capture equipment and get a CCS project up and running. Some of the things that have been put in place to try to make it a little bit more economically attractive, there's something called 45Q which is a federal tax credit which is now available to companies that decide to pursue a CCS project. And basically for every ton that they capture and store, they can get a credit of $50 per ton if it's in saline storage, or they can get $35 a ton for EOR.
And what this tax credit helps to do is to make some previously uneconomic potentially economic. So it does help turn the tides a little bit and will hopefully incentivize some projects going forward.
California has something even more unique, is a low carbon fuel standard. Basically that also allows CCS projects. And so the low carbon fuel standard is basically a credit market for transportation fuels and basically credits are currently trading for about $200 a ton. Now it varies, these credits sell on the open market and that price can go down. It's been as low as in the 20s and 30 dollars a ton. But basically in 2019 California added a new- new incentive that carbon capture and storage on any process that yields a fuel that is sold in California, is also eligible for this credit.
So that means that for example, if you're an ethnol plant and you install some carbon capture equipment and then store the- the CO2, and that ethanol, if that ethnol is blended into a fuel that is sold in California, you're eligible for the LCFS credit. So that's $200 a ton.
If you're a refinery and you do a CCS project, you're decarbonizing the process, and of course refineries are generating transportation fuels. So that is also eligible for the credit.
Now, what's not eligible for the credit is your typical combined cycle power plant because that's not generating a transportation fuel so that's not eligible for credit. But what we find is a credit of $200 a ton, I already told you what some of those capture and transportation and storage costs are, when you add them all together, they're less than 200 a ton, so you can see how that LCFS credit can really actually help spur some activity and some interest in CCS projects.
Jason: And if you've ... look out into the future, where do you think we'll be in say 2035 from a dollars per ton standpoint and what will be the biggest driver of moving us from where we are today to then?
Sarah: Well, hopefully as we get more projects up and running, we'll look for some technology efficiencies and some technology break throughs that will help bring the capture costs down. Can't put a number on that, but we see that in almost every industry, that with time and technology improvements we can find ways to drive costs down. I'm just hoping that by 2030 we have a whole lot more projects up and running and even more in the pipeline.
I think that another thing that's going to help to bring the projects down and we're seeing this in some of the projects that have been recently announced is, rather than stand-alone projects where you have an emitter, a pipeline and a storage spot, we're seeing the development or the formation of what we're calling clusters or hubs, where you see a number of industrial emitters kind of band up together to think about projects in a more holistic way. And what this helps to do is to share some of the costs, they each need to do their own capture at their own emitting facilities, but what they can share in, is the transportation and the storage.
And so some of this offers then economies of scale, sharing of costs, some- some of the transportation and storage and fundamentally sharing a lot of the up front risk. So I think that that is one way that we're going to see projects evolve going forward.
Jason: And when you look out into the future and in a world where we need to get as you said, thousands of these types of projects going, what is the role of big oil and what is the role of say, early stage startup type innovation, and what is the role of government, and are there any other key stakeholders that I haven't mentioned that you think play a really important role in this transition?
Sarah: So I think we all have a role. I think that big oil and the service companies definitely can help supply the skills and the workforce to help in this activity going forward, but we also do see a number of startups out there and the oil industry and others are helping to support these startups. There are tons of them that are looking at various new carbon capture technologies and utilization for CO2 as well. That's important.
I think that the governments have a role. Something we haven't spent a lot of time talking about are incentives and sort of hammers. The two incentives that I mentioned 45Q and LCFS are both government types of programs, but having a price on carbon would be a definite incentive that would get companies moving.
I think we all have a role to play and it's not just big oil, a lot of big emitters are your chemical companies, your cement plants, your power plants. So it's very involved and it's not just the oil industry. I just think that they're uniquely positioned with a labor force that can help.
Jason: And then, when you look at the landscape for carbon storage, where do we sit in the US relative to other parts of the world?
Sarah: There's quite a bit going on in the US. I mentioned there are 10 projects currently in the US that are up and running. And there are 20 projects worldwide. So a lot of them are here. But we certainly have the opportunity for a whole lot more. We certainly have the opportunity in California. California has no projects up and running even though we have some of the most ambitious climate goals in the country. So we really do need to look and figure out what can we do to get more projects up and running. Now, you know as I mentioned there are 80 projects sit ... well, 20 up and 60 in the- the sort of public pipeline, but there are others that we know about and there are a couple in California that are in that pipeline and more that aren't even in the pipeline that we know about. And so we need to work with them and we need policies to ensure that you can actually get projects through the pipeline in California for example. We just need to get moving on this.
Jason: And it seems clear, not only are you quite knowledgeable about the work that you do, but also that you're very passionate about it. What is it that drives you to do this work and what do you find most fulfilling about it?
Sarah: Well, I guess from my point of view, I've spent my career understanding the sub-service, understanding the energy industry. I just like being able to apply all those skills and things I've learned, but I'm really enjoying doing it sort of on the other side of things to figure out what can we do to improve the climate. For example, I live in the Oakland Hills in California, where climate change I think is just sort of staring us right in the face. Most places have four seasons, where I live, we have five seasons. We have the four traditional season and we have fire season. And fire season in my mind is 100% a result of the activities climate change and the industrial revolution. And I think that dealing with the effects of climate change are critical and I have skills that I learned in my academic training and in my background in the energy industry, that I know can help and so for me, finding ways to get more CCS projects up and running is fun.
Jason: If you were that young, undergrad geology major that was graduating today, would you follow a similar path in terms of going into a company like Chevron in 2021?
Sarah: I don't know, I think everyone needs to follow their passions, what do they really enjoy doing. I personally don't know, the options that were available to me 30 years ago are very different than the options that are available to someone right now. I've thoroughly enjoyed my career in the oil industry and I learnt a lot. I got tons of opportunities. I got to see all parts of the industry and who wouldn't want to work for a company that provides light and power and energy to the world. I mean that's really kind of a neat thing. There are some that prefer different parts of the oil industry, or the other side of the energy equation, which is things like CCS and there are opportunities for CCS kinds of things in the oil industry because we're finding that oil companies are involved in a whole lot of the projects that are coming up all over the globe. I certainly ... it's a great place to work and needs the skills of the people that are graduating now, with your geology and your petroleum engineering kinds of degrees.
Jason: And I'll ask you a similar question just in terms of given where you sit, I bet you have a lot of young students who reach out for advice, so if I was that young MIT geology major, and I reached out to you and said, "Hey, I just assumed I'd be working in oil and gas, but I just don't know if I can do it. I'm super concerned about climate change. I want to play the biggest part that I can in helping and I want to be part of the future, not be part of the past," and I'm not saying by the way that that's a factually correct statement, I'm just saying if a student came to you and said that, what would be your counsel for them?
Sarah: I don't see working for an oil company as something of the past. I think that the oil companies are essential in helping us figure out how to move forward in the energy transition. So we do need people and students and young, energetic students with bright, creative ideas to continue working in the oil industry to help us through this oil transition, or through this energy transition going forward, absolutely.
Jason: Well this has been a fascinating discussion. I almost feel like we should revisit it in a year wen I can ask more technical questions about the fundamentals of how CCS works because I feel like we haven't delved as much into that as probably some of the more technical listeners out there wish that I would have. But, is there anything I didn't ask you that I should have, or do you have any parting words for listeners?
Sarah: I think that my only parting word is for young people especially, follow your passions and for folks that are interested in CCS, there's a big world out there and a lot of growth in this industry that is coming down the pipe and we need those skills moving forward because there's a lot of potential here.
Jason: Great. Well Sarah, I really appreciate you making the time. I learned a lot and as I said, you'll hear from me again once I'm further up the learning curve and I'll be able to ask you some more targeted questions, but this was awesome and thanks so much for coming on the show.
Sarah: Great. Thank you so much. It was fun.
Jason: Hey everyone, Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co
Note, that is dot co, not dot com. Some day we'll get the dot com but right now, dot co
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