Episode 203: Renée Lertzman, Climate Psychologist
Today's guest is Renée Lertzman, Climate Psychologist & Strategist and Founder of Project InsideOut.
Project InsideOut (PIO) is a unique platform, online tool, and resource hub that brings together changemakers, activists, and clinical psychologists to drive sustainable behavior change for our planet. PIO also provides guiding psychological principles for effectively working in climate change. We are entering a new phase of building out and inviting additional organizational partners.
Renée is an internationally recognized psychological researcher and thought-leader, working to impact climate change with tools that organizations can use to engage, mobilize and connect with diverse populations. A native of Northern California, Renée has had more than 20 years of experience as a pioneer bridging psychological research and sustainability. She integrates behavioral, social, and innovative design sciences to create a dynamic approach to social change. She holds a Master's degree in Environmental Communications from the University of North Carolina and a Ph.D. from the Cardiff School of Social Sciences at Cardiff University, UK. Her distinguished reputation has led her to teach regularly, present, and produce research for numerous institutions, including World Wildlife Fund, the White House Social and Behavioural Sciences Team (SBST), National Center for Atmospheric Research, NOAA, and universities around the world. Renée is also an author and published journalist, writing about how the intersections of psychology, environment, and culture illustrate the culture of change.
I was looking forward to this episode because I wanted to learn more about Renée's work and climate psychology. Renée walks me through her career path, why she focused on climate psychology, and her strategic consulting experience in the private and public sectors. We also discuss eco-anxiety and how to turn anxiety into action. Renée is a great guest, and we cover essential topics to ensure a successful clean transition.
Enjoy the show!
You can find me on twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@mcjcollective.com, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.
Episode recorded March 14th, 2022
In Today's episode, we cover:
Renée's work as a climate psychologist and at Project InsideOut
The role psychology plays in accelerating the clean future
Renée's experience consulting with corporations and companies
The problem companies are trying to solve when they hire Renée
The importance of collective understanding of the climate crisis
How to measure successful engagement in climate action
How political affiliation affects climate action
How Renee determines and vets her clients
What Renee would change if she had a magic wand
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Jason Jacobs: Hey, everyone. Jason, here. I am the My Climate Journey show host. Before we get going, I wanted to take a minute and tell you about the My Climate Journey, or MCJ as we call it, membership option. Membership came to be because there were a bunch of people that were listening to the show that weren't just looking for education, but they were longing for a peer group as well. So we set up a Slack community for those people, that's now mushroomed into more than 1,300 members. There is an application to become a member. It's not an exclusive thing. There's four criteria we screen for, determination to tackle the problem of climate change, ambition to work on the most impactful solution areas, optimism that we can make a dent and we're not wasting our time for trying, and a collaborative spirit. Beyond that, the more diversity, the better.
There's a bunch of great things that have come out of that community. A number of founding teams that have met in there, a number of nonprofits that have been established, a bunch of hiring that's been done, a bunch of companies that have raised capital in there, a bunch of funds that have gotten limited partners or investors for their funds in there, as well as a bunch of events and programming by members and for members, and some open source projects that are getting actively worked on that hatched in there as well. At any rate, if you wanna learn more, you can go to myclimatejourney.co, the website, and click the Become a Member tab at the top. Enjoy the show.
Hello, everyone. This is Jason Jacobs. And welcome to My Climate Journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change, and try to figure out how people like you and I can help. Today's guest is Renee Lertzman. She is a climate and environmental psychologist. Renee partners with leaders and teams in business, not for profit and government, who want to learn how to awaken people's own capacities for change at scale. Some current and past clients include companies like Google, VMware, Unity, ClimateWorks Foundation, UC Berkeley, Citizens' Climate Lobby, Impossible Foods, and a whole lot more.
Now, I was a little nervous for this one because climate and environmental psychology is not exactly an area that I'm overly familiar with or comfortable talking about, but it's so important, the psychology is so important to bring out the kind of change that we need to tackle this problem. And psychology has also been one of the busiest barriers that has been holding back progress. So I was excited to get Renee's perspective on why she thinks that is, what it takes to bring about change, what we can do to help facilitate this, and of course, what she does in her practice. What she's learned along the way, her process, lessons learned, what criteria she looks for in what makes a good client, and some example success stories as well. At any rate, this is a wonderful discussion and I hope you enjoy it. Renee, welcome to the show.
Renee Lertzman: Hello, happy to be here with you.
Jason Jacobs: Thanks for coming. And when I promoted the show on Twitter before this recording, I mentioned that this is an area that's outside of my comfort zone in terms of climate and environmental psychology. It's, it's not an area that I know a lot about or I'm even particularly comfortable or well versed in talking about. But that's one of the reasons I thought it was so important to have someone like you come on the show because it's ... I mean, it matters and it's real, and I wanna understand it better. A- and I suspect a lot of our listeners who tend to maybe come from more of the small, high growth technology side of the world don't have much experience talking about this either. So thank you so much for making the time to come on and to give us the opportunity to learn from you.
Renee Lertzman: Yeah, me too. Thanks. I'm looking forward to hashing it all out.
Jason Jacobs: Well, for starters, Renee, can you just give us an overview of the work that you do and maybe some of the, the origin story as well of how you came about to be doing this work in the first place?
Renee Lertzman: Sure. So I'll start with just orienting to what I do. So I actually work with organizations, leaders and leadership teams. So my work is, is very much about organizational capacity and capability. I work right now across pretty much all sectors. It's not only climate, it could relate to, you know, plastics and packaging and just, you know, just all kinds of ESG sustainability issues. I will work with startups or foundations, uh, corporate kind of players, scrappy NGOs, maybe some educational kind of informal science institutions, like let's say, Monterey Bay Aquarium, or you know, places that are actually venues where people come in and kind of are engaging and thinking about these issues.
So I work across many kinds of sectors, but the main thing is I work with Orgs and I do not do like therapy, I'm not ... I don't have a private practice as a psychologist. I really feel like what's needed right now is to take the skills, and expertise, and insights that have been sort of honed and developed more in the ... those realms of psychology, you, you know, neuroscience, cognitive, behavioral, the more somatic work to translate that and apply that and scale that in a whole variety of ways. So that's, that's basically what my work is about and what I've been doing for a number of years. And it's, it's very high impact kind of work.
It's sort of like when you were talking earlier about, you know, how you came to do this work and the, and the community that you have, and the kinds of people who are in the mix, my thinking is, well, everything that we're doing and you're talking about is ... I mean, it is really human- humans [laughing] are pretty central to it. And so all we're looking at here is, is really just deepening the understanding of the human psychological dimensions of this work, which are completely inseparable from everything we do.
So, um, would love to unpack that a bit more with you in a very practical way. But to start, I'll just respond to your question about the origin story, especially given this is really like foregrounding what our journeys are. And I love that, and I think that's so powerful for us to share our kind of origin stories and how we come into this work. So I'll just start by saying that, for me, it's always a little hard to know where to start because of just how we evolve as humans. It's like, well, was it my childhood? And was it where I grew up? And you know, what are the influences? But I would, I would really locate this in that first year I had as a undergraduate when I was studying at UC Santa Cruz in the late 1980s. I talk about this in my TED talk a bit, and I talk about it a lot in my other kind of forums because it was such a, a powerful experience.
So in the late 1980s, I was a freshman, I was already thought that I would become a psychologist. I was very influenced and benefited from psychology even in high school, you know, I had seen a therapist. And I grew up actually in Palo Alto and, you know, was just exposed to that kind of thinking maybe a little bit more than in other parts of the country and the world. And so I just knew, okay, I, I have a thing for psychology, I'm gonna become a therapist. And, and so I, I enrolled as a psych major.
And what happened was I happened to take a class, one of those introductory classes as a freshman, and was introduced to a whole variety of environmental and climate threats. And I found it incredibly perplexing that I was going into these, these lecture halls and being told about what's happening, you know, species loss, and deforestation, and you know, ice sheets. I mean, it was just ... it was so much to process and yet we weren't really talking about the profundity of it. You know, we would go in and have these lectures, and then I would come out and just kind of be ... feel like I was just sort of dropped, you know, on my own to deal with it. And then I was going into my psychology classes and of course there was no mention of any of that. And that just seemed very bizarre to me.
And so from that point on, this was in 86-87, I became just very clear that we need to join these fields up and we need to get to the bottom of, why is it that in light of what's happening, humans, I'm just generalizing here, but there's a pretty slow response to actually kind of mobilize and to engage? And so to me, that's really fundamentally a psychological question, but I don't mean just as an individual, I mean socially.
So another way of putting it, it's psychosocial. So it's not just me, I'm not just one person kind of in my own little world determining how I'm gonna engage or respond, it's really, how do we, as communities, as societies, as organizations, as populations come to terms with these issues? So that really started my journey. That was in the late 1980s, it was not really a well defined or clear field at the time. I ended up leaving eventually to do my own major because I could not find a way to do it without being creative.
And so I went out and I found my mentors, I found the people who I could train with and study with, who could enable that kind of bridging of these worlds of psychology and climate change and environmental threat. And also took me, you know, for a while I was focusing mainly on communications, on how do we communicate about the issues? How do we educate people? And so for years I was really focused on that. I did a Master's in communications and I worked with some amazing people. And, and I just started to see that I can't ... it's not just about communications, you know, it's really about how do we relate, and how do we interact, and how do we engage with ourselves but also with each o- ... with other people when it comes to these issues.
And I just started being sort of aggressive or ruthless in my quest to surface, what do we already know? What do we understand about humans? About how humans handle anxiety, how humans handle high stakes, how humans handle risk. Like, how do we take that and apply that to this issue, this task? And what does that look like in policy, in startups, in innovation?
And the last thing I'll just say is, what it really means is it, it really is about reframing our entire way of understanding what it takes to kind of elicit action on these issues. Because if, if anxiety actually has a way of potentially paralyzing people and making us not wanna engage for a variety reasons, if we just accept that one piece which is established already, then the implications for how we do what we do can and should be profound.
Jason Jacobs: So if I'm, if I'm hearing right, sometimes it's framed that our whole economy and the industrial revolution and stuff was built without any thought to the, the externalities or the, you know, the pollution that we're pumping up into the atmosphere. And that a lot of good came from the industrial revolution, but essentially without factoring that in, then there's no end to how much we put up there and we find ourselves in the mess that we're in, and that we ne- need to rewire the global economy to be more in harmony with the planet that we rely on and with each other.
But it's, uh, it's kind of carbon or DHGs at the center. And what's the role of academia? And what's the role of policy? And what's the role of breakthrough innovation? And what's the role of deployment? And what's the role of, of activism and, and things like that? What I'm hearing from you is you're coming at it through a different lens where you say, okay, we need to change, but what's the role of psychology? And how does that manifest with organizations? How does that manifest with government? How does that manifest with individuals? How does that manifest with the scientific community? And what psychology's role in accelerating the transition overall?
Renee Lertzman: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Jason Jacobs: Is that right?
Renee Lertzman: That is right. And I would add that I think it's helpful to see this as like existential change management. So what I'm talking about here is, how do we come to terms with facing what we've done? What humans, not saying we are all equally complicit, but the existential act of, of actually coming to terms with what you've just outlined, which is, industrialization has enabled an enormous benefits. And frankly, a lot of our identities in the Western developed world, a lot of our identities are actually woven through with industrial practices. And now we're at a moment where there's this light that's being kind of shone on the fact that a lot of these practices not only are, are not sustainable, but are damaging and degrading to life, you know, to biotic systems, to health, to human wellbeing, to the wellbeing of other life on the planet.
That in itself is a psychologically very complex thing to do, that people working in the innovation and solution space often overlook. They skip over that completely and they say, look, we just have to solve this, this is a big problem, what's wrong with you? Let's get on with it. And they're skipping the fact that this is change management. This is about looking at how do we process, you know, what also might come up, which might be feeling shame, feeling some guilt, feeling overwhelmed, feeling conflict and ambivalent because I don't wanna have to change on some level, I don't really wanna have to change what I'm doing or what we're doing.
And there's that kind of like resistance to change that if you know about change management, for example, and the organizational settings, there's a lot that we know about, you know, whether it's Rob Kegan's work, Immunity to Change, or just that, that it's very hard for humans, right?
And so where I'm focusing on and what I'm encouraging us to think about in this work is how to bring that sensitivity, that orientation to the work we do to not bypass, to not skip over it, but to say, wow, like, this is big stuff, this is complex. How do we support each other? How do we, how do we enable each other and ourselves to show up in this work in a way that is truly resilient, and grounded, and wholesome, and healthy, and regenerative? And yes, I think that, frankly, it's hugely psychological in order to be able to do that well.
Jason Jacobs: We haven't talked about your portfolio of, of work. But if you look at your overarching charter and how you determine which work is a fit, is it more about accelerating the transition and using psychology to undo the knots? Or is it about better equipping us to deal with what's happening so that we can be resilient and hold ourselves together? How do you think about the, the goal of, of your work?
Renee Lertzman: Mm-hmm [affirmative] that's a great question, because I don't separate those things out. So the end goal is absolutely about accelerating action and, and mobilizing people to frankly access our capacities to be as innovative, and agile, and flexible, and nimble as possible, right. To do work in this space, you have to be able to tolerate really high levels of uncertainty. You have to tolerate complex and messy human dynamics because you're partnering now with all kinds of new actors and stakeholders. And so there's a kind of a high kind of human developmental capability that is now ... I think we're being asked to evolve into, right. So I like to really frame it as this opportunity we have as humans to evolve into that. And in order to do that, we do have to look at the other part of what you ask, the ... like, what enables us to navigate and kind of hold it together and be effective in light of what's happening.
So my work tends to focus like kind of hold those things together and encourage people working, particularly in leadership roles and leadership teams, you know, funders, you know, people who have, frankly, really high impact, people who really can have key leverage points in the, in the system, how to model a way of doing this work that gives, you know, so many others kind of examples in templating and permission to see what it looks like to be effective in this space. And so in terms of my portfolio and who I work with, there's a few things that I look for, and this will determine whether I agree to take something on or not. And one of them is actually a readiness and an openness to think differently and to examine one's own and your organization or team's theories of change.
Now, I talk a lot about theories of change, which is the ability to take a step back and say, okay, you know, let's look at how we're thinking about this and approaching this, is this, is this make sense? Is this grounded in, frankly, what the research says or what ... like, are we defaulting to our assumptions or are we able to, to have the courage and the ability to take a step back and say, okay, we're at a point now where we're ready to, to really be as discerning as we can and really thoughtful about how we're going about this work? So that is a, kind of a rare trait [laughing]. There's a lot ... I wanna speak to why that's rare in a second, because I think it's really important. But, but that's one of the, the attributes.
And then I also look for what's connected to that is cart and, you know, people who are really coming at this from a place of kindness and wanting to bring our full selves to the work and our full selves to how we work with other people, right. And then I think a third would be humility. And that relates to the other two, which is, I really partner with organizations or leaders who have humility. And that is also can be in short supply when it comes to facing such just huge, massive challenges.
Jason Jacobs: So do you work mostly with corporates?
Renee Lertzman: I do.
Jason Jacobs: And so the corporates, what is it that they're trying to solve when they pick up the phone and call you?
Renee Lertzman: They either want to engage their employees across the entire organization so that everyone in the organization actually feels and has a direct sense of co-owning and being part of the work. So whether that's ESG, climate, sustainability, I will be asked to help them achieve, let's say, an OKR or achieve a, a goal or an outcome of every employee here actually has a direct sense of being part of the solution. And so it's ... you know, I guess you could think of it as sort of employee engagement, but I think it's more than that right now. I think it's more about cultural transformation, organizational cultural transformation. So that's, that's a big part of it.
And then there's the internal stakeholder engagement piece. So I will partner with, say, a sustainability team or a ... you know, the, uh, group that's been sort of designated as the ones who are supposed to somehow solve this and fix this. I might work with them on how can they approach stakeholder engagement from a more emotionally intelligent place. So those are some of the things I'm asked to do.
Um, I also work ... I've done a fair amount with ... you know, I've been working with nonprofits in philanthropy and educational orgs for years as well, and they may have an interest in ... I did a project recently where they were looking at their air travel poll and they had me facilitate some kind of sensitive conversations within the organization as a climate organization about how are they relating within approaching air travel.
Jason Jacobs: And so when the CEO decides to pick up the phone or the CFO agrees to approve the expense or, or whatever it is, is it coming from a place of doing what's best for the collective good that leads them to pick up the phone and reach out or even try to solve this problem in the first place, or is it more of a business case or, or some of both? Like, does the business case matter?
Renee Lertzman: I think it's often a combination of those things. And I don't know if it, I don't know if it matters. I work with people who come at this from a variety of motivations, and I'm at a place now where I think it's really important to be open to what the motivations are and to really kind of widen the tent. I think that one of the reasons why maybe people ... why people might appreciate working with me is I'm very intentional about not having a- an expectation that to do this work you should be showing up in a particular way, I.e. as an activist or as someone who's, you know, you've gotta be like super on fire and like this is your life's work and you're super passionate. I actually think it's important right now that we create a context where every single person, no matter who they are, somehow finds their way here and/or experiences themselves as a key protagonists in this narrative. And however that ... whatever that makes sense for them, I think that's fine.
Jason Jacobs: When it comes to theories of change, let's say there's, I'll just pick a random example, but a, a coal miner labor union, right. And, you know, we, we wanna get off coal as quickly as we can because of the problem, and we want to of course ramp up cleaner sources like renewables and, and others. But we have to make sure there's a just transition and that we can't just, you know, leave these communities and these families, you know, without employment and without the means to provide for them and their loved ones.
How important is it to convince people, and in this case, coal miners and their families, that this problem matters and this problem is worthy of solving, and, and we have a duty, and, you know, versus just saying, hey, let's re-skill you and you can make substantially more income with better quality of life and more security and stability over time in a growing industry instead of a dying one? How important is it that collectively as individuals, we all understand the problem versus just making the transition and, and getting there as quickly and efficiently as we can?
Renee Lertzman: Wow, you're asking such amazing question [laughing].
Jason Jacobs: Oh, thanks. I've talked with so many people, uh, and I, I probably incorporate a lot of what these smart, awesome, well placed people who've been working on it way longer than I have tell me. So it's like a, it's like a cheat sheet. I don't make this stuff up [laughing].
Renee Lertzman: But I think what you're asking really goes to the heart of what we all should be talking about right now and thinking about. So my response to that is, as you were talking I was feeling like, well, on an emotional level, as someone who's been doing this work for 30 years now, and I, I come from more of a deep green kind of a radical background, I'm a deep ecologist, yeah, of course I want people to feel emotionally involved in like this is the most important thing. And of course I want people to have a revelation where we realize we are all connected and we have to live in balance with nature. And, oh my god, you know, what have we done? You know, and, and I wanna heal and repair the earth. Like, tell me what to do, sign me up and I wanna heal and, and make reparation. You know, of course I want that. Of course I would like everyone right now to wake up and have that experience.
But I don't think that, that's reasonable, I don't think that's necessarily appropriate, and I don't think that's necessary. My theory of change is that basically each person has their own right to relate with this context we're in, in a way that makes most sense for them. It's not my place to try to convince people of anything, that's really important. So I come from a, kind of a orientation that's informed by what's called a body of work in public health sector called motivational interviewing. And motivational interviewing is what's used in the public health sector by clinicians when they're working with people on behavior change and health issues. It's very insightful, it's very wise, and it probably has more insight about the ... like the reality of human response to change than most anything I've found, which is that we need to really honor and respect the integrity and the dignity of each human and how they are coming to this work.
So my job is not about trying to persuade, convince, or educate people about what's happening. My job is to provide the context where people can feel invited and engaged to be co-creators, to be partners in what's happening. So in your example with the coal, you know, that's a, that's a really good example. You create the conditions, you lay out the context of what's happening, but we allow people to find their way to it. And if some people feel very emotionally engaged with, oh my God, you know, I'm having an awakening, what do we do? I need to sign up for this. That's fine, that's great. If others are finding their way into this in terms of, oh, I, I get to evolve and develop new skills and practices, and I'm able to earn well for my family and take care of my community, like that's completely great too. So I think that it's important we approach this ... I would call it this almost an emotionally intelligent way to approach this is the way to go.
Jason Jacobs: So how do you know when you take on an engagement, once that engagement is over, whether it was a successful engagement or not?
Renee Lertzman: So when my partners or clients are actually able to articulate and design their own approach to engagement is when it's been successful. So just an example I have from a recent-
Jason Jacobs: I was gonna ask you for an example. Yeah, if there's like a before and after or something. Like, everything we're talking about is pretty abstract and I think the ... an illustrative example would be so helpful.
Renee Lertzman: Okay. So I'm gonna give an example of a client that I've been working with, a corporate tech client. I won't name who it is.
Jason Jacobs: Perfect. Oh, that's so perfect-
Renee Lertzman: [laughing].
Jason Jacobs: ... because a lot of our audiences is, is ... No, it's not all coming from tech, but a lot of people are.
Renee Lertzman: Okay. So I was approached by a big tech company to work with them on their ESG strategy. So how do they introduce the employees and the stakeholders within this company about the ESG work, the goals, the agenda, the why, all of that? And they ... when I came in, they had some pretty clear approaches that they were taking and planning on taking that were very typical. And I have, I have this tool I use, it's called a quadrant of engagement, and it maps out these kind of very dominant ways that we tend to approach these kinds of challenges.
So they, one, were convinced that they needed to create games and mechanisms that incentivize people and kind of get people involved by sort of gamifying the work. They also were heavily, heavily indexed on communication. So marketing on like messaging. Like, oh, we have to tell the story and we have to put out a bunch of like amazing web campaigns, and we also have to put out a bunch of reports. So it's all very like calm, it's very push oriented. Like messaging, here's what we have to do. So those were their primary ways of thinking about the work, is that in order to get everyone on board with this work, we have to make the case, we have to persuade them, we have to tell them about what ESG is, we have to tell them about the goals, all of that.
So what we did is we started with my favorite thing, which is a lot of listening. So, you know, you could think of it as stakeholder interviews, whatever, but just going out and just ...
Jason Jacobs: And you could go wherever you wanted in the organization? Or how ... like how wide a net did you cast, and what level of people?
Renee Lertzman: Well, okay. So in an ideal scenario, I advocate for as much, you know, like basically working with a small group of people who can fan out across the organization and do a lot of listening.
Jason Jacobs: And this is all you or you have a team?
Renee Lertzman: Um, this is mainly me [laughing].
Jason Jacobs: Wow. No wonder why we need to keep this short, you're busy.
Renee Lertzman: Exactly [laughing]. It's a, it's a little much right now. But what I do is I partner with teams in organizations so that, frankly, they're doing a lot of the heavy lift. Now, there's a reason for that, that's because the more that they're involved in doing the heavy lift, they are then invested and they are owning the work so that as a consultant, I'm no- not the one who's like taking it all on, right. So I actually get them to do as much as I possibly can [laughing]. And I will train people to do interviews, I'll train them to do listening sessions, I'll train them to do facilitation and so forth. So they go out, they do a lot of listening, we get a sense of, where are people at with this topic of ESG? Like, what are their perceptions, their anxieties? What's their ambivalence? And what are the, what are the aspirations for this?
Then in this particular, we then ran a series with these insights, ran a series of really thoughtful, like we called them like dialogue sessions or thought sessions, with a smaller group of key stakeholders. And those sessions ran over a number of months. And in those sessions, I introduce the concept of guiding on this work. So we took those, remember I mentioned that there was just kind of some assumptions about how, you know, how we're gonna go about this, and I very ... I kind of guided them to rethink that, to examine that through the lens of guiding, which is something I feel very strongly about. Which is doing this work as guide, not as an educator, not as a cheerleader, and not as a righteous kind of activist, but really as a guide.
And so in the course of doing these sessions and then mapping their theories of change so that they could see where they're really strong and where they wanna maybe get a bit more developed, we got to a place where they were able to draft their ESG engagement principles, like a playbook, and it wasn't me doing it. So that is success right there. Then I just found out, you know, I just heard that they rolled this out to the office of the CTO and they loved it, and everyone in that team now wants them to go work with them and, and do a similar kind of guiding engagement session.
So the- they're off and running. Like now that work is gonna ... it could take all kinds of forms, but what happened was they went through a pretty significant mindset shift and they learned new skills and capabilities that set them up to be effective at guiding and driving ESG engagement across the organization even at the super high leadership level, senior leadership level, all the way to, you know, teams they'll probably partnering with, you know, ERGs, and with the human resources and all of that. Does that make sense? Is that helpful?
Jason Jacobs: It does. I, I mean, a few thoughts come to mind. One is just, given how polarized the climate is, at least here in the United States, where there's really only one political party where you can talk about this challenge openly and urgently, how much does that factor into your work? For example, I would argue that we might get more impact towards solving the problem by figuring out how to motivate and mobilize people that tend to gravitate from the other political party than to this one, but those are also people a lot less likely to pick up the phone and call you in the first place. So how do you navigate that?
Renee Lertzman: Well, I do work with all parties [laughing] and I, I regard that as, as a sign of success. I'm very proud of the fact that I have been engaged to work with some more conservative climate initiatives and projects.
Jason Jacobs: Any that you can mention?
Renee Lertzman: So Republican is an example. So Bob Inglis has Republican organization which I was on their-
Jason Jacobs: They're pushing for a carbon tax, is that right?
Renee Lertzman: Yes. They have a podcast, and so I was invited to be on their podcast. And, you know, and I know them, and I know Bob, and I ... and to me, that's an example of a situation where, you know, I'm very happy to help however I can.
Jason Jacobs: But would your, like, your corporate clients, do they look more like Patagonia or do they look more like Coke Industries?
Renee Lertzman: [laughing] Well, I would say somewhere in the middle there, but absolutely I would never work with Coke [laughing].
Jason Jacobs: But they tend to be publicly traded for profit companies reporting on a quarterly basis to shareholders? Like, you know, companies that, that can't ... you know, that have to be responsible to the, to the bottom line and have accountability to shareholders to do so.
Renee Lertzman: Yeah. But I do, I do vet my clients. You know, I, I don't work with just anyone, but I also try to be as inclusive as possible. So it's kind of walking that fine line there. But I think it's safe to say that, in my work, I do end up working with people from different political affiliations. I don't just work with, you know, kind of hardcore progressives at all. And I think, again, it goes back to the lens of guiding and using emotional intelligence. And it's not about trying to persuade or convince people, it's trying to create a context where people can find their way there and feel safe to engage in ways that make sense to them.
A lot of people don't engage with these issues because they're afraid they're gonna be judged, or attacked, or critiqued for their views or their ignorance. A lot of people tell me that they feel like they just don't know enough about the issues, and so therefore they don't wanna get involved. And so, to me, it's about creating in context where people feel safe to come in and, and again, kind of find their way there wherever they're coming from. So, yeah.
There was one project I did ... I was involved with years ago that where I did ... was involved with interviewing conservative Republicans from around the US. It was a pretty cool project that was led by someone named Rich Tau, who was then a senior advisor for the GOP, for the Republican party, he since has shifted his entire career since 2016. But it was fascinating to be part of this project where we talked in depth and really listened to people from, you know, uh, hardcore conservative, like Republican climate skeptic people around the country, in the US. And to hear kind of where they were at with this and, and their, their emotional relationship with the issues was, was really fascinating. And I'm sure that's informed quite a lot of how I approach this now.
Jason Jacobs: And i- if you could change one thing outside of the scope of your control that would most accelerate your work and undo the knots as it relates to human psychology that are creating barriers to inhibit us from addressing this problem with the urgency it requires, what would you change and how would you change it?
Renee Lertzman: I would ensure that those working in this space have a baseline literacy of the psychology of climate change. And what that means to me is not just behavioral science, or messaging, or, you know, design thinking, it's actually understanding and appreciating the psychological dimensions of what it means to confront this work and to engage with this. And so, so to me, it's like having a baseline competency and capability.
And two is understanding and appreciating the role of anxiety. That when, when there's anxiety, when people are feeling anxiety for a variety of reasons, it actually has a profound impact on our ability to learn, to grow, to be expansive, to be flexible, to be resilient. And to me, the X factor here is if people in this space, working in climate, actually prioritized and, and understood, at a deeper level, that work just like we do with science, and tech, and policy, it has to also include the psychological dimensions as well. That is the one thing I would do.
And that's ... maybe that's a lead into the project that I started a couple years ago, which is a grant-supported project called Project Inside Out, that I set up as an experiment. It's super scrappy and really early days, but the objective is, is exactly that, is to provide people working on these issues with some tools and frameworks to orient towards the work we do, no matter if you're a startup or an entrepreneur, or if you're a ... whatever you're doing, to look at your work through that lens of the psychological dimensions of this work, hopefully in a, in a practical way.
Jason Jacobs: And Renee, for anyone that's listening that's inspired about your work, how can we help you? Or who might you wanna hear from, if anybody?
Renee Lertzman: So you can help by becoming a partner or supporting Project Inside Out, so it's projectinsideout.net, and you can get in touch with me. I'm always very open and interested in funding partner. So I mean, people can always just contribute however they want, but I like to ... I'd like to be in partnership and to see what is possible when you bring different disciplines and skill sets together, and it makes our work better. So that's Project Inside Out. And then I love working with organizations, so I welcome, you know, conversations to explore partnering on that level.
And then I guess the third thing I would say is just talk about these issues with each other, right. Like start talking about how we're feeling and how we're doing as part of doing this work and to kind of help each other normalize that so that it's okay to start a meeting and have everyone just check in and say, hey, this is how I'm doing right now. And that actually really supports your ability to be even more effective and productive. To, to give each other permission to be ourselves with this work, to be gentle with ourselves, to give ourselves that kind of grace, that this is really hard stuff, this is really ... sometimes really overwhelming, and it's actually okay to feel overwhelmed sometimes. It's okay, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. And that will come out of it. That is ju- just like kind of part of the territory.
Jason Jacobs: And anything I didn't ask that I should have or any parting words?
Renee Lertzman: I don't think so. I think the only thing I would just add, if I haven't said this before, is I think that this is an opportunity for us as humans to evolve and to embrace, I guess, the word would be development, right? Like to grow, to embrace growth. And that's how I would encourage us framing this. Is like, how can I grow to become a, even more integrated, and grounded, and resilient human so that I can show up at my best for others, right? And that we have this opportunity now to do that, and, you know, I actually feel quite positive about the direction things are going. So it's a very dynamic time to be alive, so.
Jason Jacobs: It is. Well, on that note, thank you so much for making the time to come on the show. This was a terrific discussion. I think it's gonna spur a bunch of interesting and productive dialogue. And wishing you every success in your important work.
Renee Lertzman: Thank you so much. It was really amazing having this conversation with you.
Jason Jacobs: Hey, everyone. Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co. Note, that is dot co, not dot com. Someday we'll get the dot com, but right now, dot co. You can also find me on Twitter @JJacobs22, where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The lawyers made me say that. Thank you.
