Startup Series: Noya
Today's guests are Josh Santos, Co-Founder & CEO, and Daniel Cavero, Co-Founder & CTO, of Noya Labs.
Josh and Daniel met a few years ago when they were roommates in San Francisco. In 2020, they founded Noya Labs together. Josh holds a B.S. in Chemical-Biological Engineering at MIT, and Daniel has a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering from San Diego State University.
Noya Labs captures CO2 from the atmosphere and reselling it for half the cost of current options. The company works to retrofit existing industrial equipment to enable carbon capture and resale. When Josh and Daniel broke down the cost of direct air capture systems, they realized a large portion of the cost hinges on one component. Noya is working to reduce this component's cost, allowing for a scalable process that can have a massive impact. Noya aims to capture seven gigatons of carbon emissions with a removal cost that is half the current market price through its proprietary technology.
I was especially looking forward to this episode as our climate tech fund, MCJ Collective, recently invested in Noya Labs. Josh and Daniel are fantastic guests with a great vision. They walk me through how they met, what motivated them to start Noya, and the company's future. Josh and Daniel touch on Noya's timeline, key milestones, and funding to date. We also discuss the problem Noya is tackling, the barriers holding the company back, and direct air capture as a climate solution more broadly. Whether you're interested in DAC or a founder looking for inspiration, this episode is a must-listen.
Enjoy the show!
You can find me on Twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@myclimatejourney.co, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.
Episode recorded March 3rd, 2021.
In Today's episode, we cover:
Noya's mission, progress to date, and the company origin story
What led Josh and Daniel's to found Noya and focus on direct air capture
The cost problem with air contactors and how Noya is solving it at scale
The method of direct air capture, the existing solutions within the sector, and the major players who are working on DAC
Advice Josh and Daniel have for those looking to focus on DAC
The carbon removal market, how Noya stacked up to other CO2 sources, and its unique approach to navigating the market
How Josh and Daniel built the prototypes and the early stages of Noya
The function of cooling towers and why they are so essential to decarbonize
The technology Noya is developing, the impact it could have as a climate solution, and the potential scalability of the product
Potential negative ramifications that retrofitting these cooling towers can have and how Noya is innovating solutions
The director air capture market and the cost of Noya's solution when compared to other DAC options
Noya's partners and potential customers utilizing its tech
Noya's special sauce and what sets Josh and Daniel's vision apart
The carbon market broadly and existing sources for CO2
Why recycled CO2 is better than non-recycled CO2
Key phases on the path to permanence for Noya and the timeline of the company
Noya's funding to date and its future capital needs
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Jason Jacobs: Hey everyone, Jason, here. I am, the My Climate Journey show host. Before we get going, I wanted to take a minute and tell you about the, My Climate Journey or MCJ as we call it, membership option. Membership came to be because there were a bunch of people that were listening to the show that weren't just looking for education, but there were longing for a peer group as well. So we set up a slack community for those people that's now mushroomed into more than 1300 members. There is an application to become a member. It's not an exclusive thing, there's four criteria we screen for; determination to tackle the problem of climate change, ambition to work on the most impactful solution areas, optimism that we can make a dent. And we're not wasting our time for trying, and a collaborative spirit. Beyond that, the more diversity, the better.
There's a bunch of great things that have come out of that community. A number of founding teams that have met in there, a number of nonprofits that have been established, a bunch of hiring that's been done, a bunch of companies that have raised capital in there. A bunch of funds that have gotten limited partners or investors for their funds in there, as well as a bunch of events and programming by members and for members and some open source projects that are getting actively worked on that hatched in there as well.
At any rate, if you wanna learn more, you can go to myclimatejourney.co the website and click the Become a Member tab at the top. Enjoy the show.
Hello everyone. This is Jason Jacobs. And welcome to My Climate Journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change, and try to figure out how people like you and I can help.
Today's guests are Josh Santos and Daniel Cavero from Noya Labs. Noya's mission is to accelerate the transition of industry to a sustainable existence. Every day, they're making progress towards this mission with a CO2 capture process that utilizes existing industrial equipment to pull CO2 out of the air. They take the CO2 pull from the atmosphere and repackage it for sale to industrial CO2 consumers. They work with cooling tower owners. They retrofit the cooling tower to capture CO2. They pay the cooling tower owners for the CO2 that these cooling towers capture, and there's no physical changes to the tower required.
Now I had a lot of questions about this coming into this episode, but we cover a lot of ground in terms of direct air capture, how it works, where it is in its trajectory, the different types of direct air capture that are possible, the Noya Lab solution, their progress to date, what's coming next, some of the barriers holding them back. And we also have a great discussion about where direct air capture fits into tackling climate change and what other kinds of things will be impactful as well. Daniel, Josh, welcome to the show.
Josh Santos: Hey Jason, thanks for having us.
Daniel Cavero: Hey Jason, thanks.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm psyched to speak with you. I know when we first met several months ago, you were in a mode where you were working very hard, but not sharing too much about what you're doing and we're kinda catching it now just after you've started to talk a little more publicly. So really excited both to share with listeners, but also selfishly to learn more about what you're up to as well, since I'm not coming in with a whole lot of context.
Josh Santos: Yeah. We're excited to talk about it. It's been a long and arduous journey. And I think that we have a lot to learn still ahead of us, but we've learned a lot. And so I'm excited to get into some of that with you today.
Jason Jacobs: Awesome. Well, for starters, what is Noya?
Josh Santos: Yeah. Noya is capturing CO2 from the atmosphere and reselling it for half the cost of current options. We're doing this by retrofitting existing industrial equipment, like cooling towers to enable carbon capture and resale.
Jason Jacobs: Got it. And how did you come about working on this problem space? So before we even get into the- the solution, did you set out to do something in climate or how did all this come about to begin with?
Josh Santos: Yeah, I'll, I'll share my side of the story and Daniel can chime in with some of his input as well. I grew up in the Southeast. I went to 13 schools across the states of Georgia and Texas North to Kentucky as a kid, and increasingly saw the damage that hurricanes were doing to the part of the region that I grew up in and saw them continue to get worse as I got older. And so when I went to college, I wanted to do something that would ultimately be able to impact that problem and help save a lot of people a lot of pain ultimately.
So I ended up getting a degree in chemical engineering from MIT and moved out to San Francisco as people do to get into the startup game and figure out how to start helping people. When I moved out here, I moved in with Daniel. We were roommates out in San Francisco.
Jason Jacobs: What year was that?
Josh Santos: That was in 20-
Daniel Cavero: 16.
Josh Santos: 2016. Was it really?
Daniel Cavero: Yeah.
Josh Santos: Wow. 2016.
Jason Jacobs: Have you guys been roommates since 2016?
Daniel Cavero: Well, we stopped being roommates November last year, 2020, but ever since 2016, we were roommates.
Josh Santos: And being realistic we spend more time together than we do apart anyways.
Daniel Cavero: Right.
Jason Jacobs: All right. Well, anyways, back to ... I didn't mean to cut off the story, but that's ... yeah, roommate and co-founders like, man, that is a lot.
Josh Santos: [laughing] People say that if you can handle living with somebody for a few years, then you can handle starting a company with them. And that's largely been true in our case. We have been fortunate to have a friendship to fall back on when late nights, heated discussions get tough and we can sort of look at each other and joke about whoever might've been, might have been wrong [laughing] in that situation.
But yeah, so we moved out to San Francisco and moved in with Daniel and- and a few other folks. And we just were always obsessed with talking about solving big, hairy problems in the world. We talked about solving plastics problems in the ocean, and we talked about ways to recycle things better and ultimately landed on climate because it was, we sort of just woke up and realized it was the single biggest problem that anybody could be working on. And we wanted to dedicate our time to that.
Jason Jacobs: When was that, that you landed on doing something in climate?
Daniel Cavero: February last year, Josh came back from work one day after reading a paper written at Stanford and basically the paper described electrode reduction of CO2 to a more valuable chemical. And he pitched the idea to me like, "Hey, Daniel, let's go talk to the writer of this article." And-
Josh Santos: Yeah. We were like going up the stairs from our garage to our house. It was like ... I didn't even picture it as a pitch at the time.
Daniel Cavero: It was a pitch.
Josh Santos: [laughs].
Daniel Cavero: It was a, it was a stair pitch. One- one floor stair pitch.
Josh Santos: It's like an elevator pitch.
Daniel Cavero: [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. That's like the sustainable version of an elevator pitch.
Daniel Cavero: That's right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly [laughing]. But anyways, immediately I jumped on and we started talking to the writers of the paper and we later found out that the bottleneck truly to change the current landscape was the capture of CO2. So we were very inspired at the beginning and wanted to make sure that the solution was very scalable. And so we designed a prototype for a device that would sit in people's houses and basically capture CO2. And even though we got a lot of friendly requests, a lot of friends were like, "Just send me one now, I want to clean the air inside my room." We found that the- the economics wouldn't really work out and we started looking into bigger devices and that's how we landed on cooling towers.
Jason Jacobs: And before we get too far into what you're doing with Noya focusing on the capture of CO2, what is it that led you to believe that that was a high leverage place to focus if you care about addressing climate change?
Josh Santos: Yeah. We were very much uninformed about much of the good work that people had been doing for years in climate. We were sort of just thinking from first principles that if climate change is created by there being too much CO2 in the atmosphere, then if we take CO2 out of the atmosphere, then that should just reverse it, right? And it should just be that simple. And so that was ultimately what led us to the initial idea. And so we started digging into like the landscape of what people were doing and tried to get educated in what types of technologies exist to actually pull CO2 from the atmosphere.
And we realized that many people have been working on this for a long time and that we were nowhere near the first people. And at the same time, there seems to have been a commercial bottleneck in deploying this at scale, deploying carbon removal at scale. And the main reason isn't technological, right? We've had the technology to do this. We've known how to do it chemically for almost a century, but we haven't figured out how to do it cheaply yet.
And if you look at the cost breakdown of a direct air capture system, you see that there's a large portion of the costs that sits in one component, which is the air contactor or the thing that moves air that contains CO2 into a carbon sponge, if you will, into something that will capture the CO2 from that air. And so we said, well, if we can just start with making that one component cheaper and making this one part of the process cheaper, then maybe that'll give us a good enough path towards making this a scalable process that can have a massive impact. And so that led us to the- the air purifier for CO2 idea that Daniel mentioned and ultimately to where we are today.
Jason Jacobs: And the air contactor that captures the air and transfers it to a carbon sponge, as you were describing, the existing solutions, what are they? And what is it that makes the costs so high, and to the extent that you can share, what are you doing and why can that be done less expensively?
Josh Santos: Yeah, definitely. There are many exciting avenues that people are taking to perform direct air capture. And we are very much of the opinion that we need all of them to be successful at the mission that we're all collectively working on, which is to reverse climate change, and ensure that we have a happy and bright future ahead of us. And so we- we love the fact that there are more and more people starting to work in this space. It's really exciting and encouraging for us.
Some of the main types of direct air capture approaches that we've seen and that existed at the time and still exist now, largely fall into a few different buckets. The first bucket is the same one that we're playing in, which is the sort of chemical aqueous solvent bucket. And that bucket uses a chemical solution dissolved in water to pull CO2 out of a moving stream of air. We are one example of that, and there are some other larger ones that ... some other larger companies that are also doing this such as-
Jason Jacobs: Like who?
Josh Santos: Yeah. Such as Carbon Engineering, they're probably the best well-known company that's doing something like this.
Jason Jacobs: The Climeworks of the world, are they in a similar category as well?
Josh Santos: Climeworks is doing something similar, but I understand that they're using not an aqueous solvent, but rather a solid sorbent. So they have fixed some carbon sponge to the surface of a material that they pass air over. And that carbon sponge captures CO2 as the air moves past it. So that's a second bucket, is this sort of solid state sovereign approach, rather than the aqueous chemical solution approach.
Jason Jacobs: And what are the pros and cons of those versus each other?
Josh Santos: Yeah. So versus each other, one, when you look at the aqueous solvent approach, there is the pro that you can actually get by with using a lot more air per unit of capture solvent, right? So you can pass more air through the same amount of capture solvent to capture some amount of CO2. And that allows you to be a little bit more scalable in how you build out the system.
With the solid based solvent approach, you get the benefit of not having to regenerate using a larger amount of heat. You get to save on heat because you heat up a small amount of solid instead of a larger amount of water to get to the CO2 that the carbon sponge has captured. And so, you potentially get some cost savings in heat, but you have to build larger things to capture the same amount of CO2 because you can't pass it through moving streams of water. You instead have to pass it over these sort of tile-based, or imagine like a tile of CO2, a sponge. You have to sort of replicate that over larger plots of land instead of getting to pass the CO2 through one moving stream of water.
Jason Jacobs: And are those the two primary buckets or were there other buckets as well?
Josh Santos: Yeah. Those are the two primary chemical-based buckets. Many people are chasing other types of buckets as well. So there are buckets like ... that are more centered around the biosphere, buckets like carbon dioxide removal using trees or using seaweed.
Daniel Cavero: The ocean.
Josh Santos: There are people ... yup, people using the ocean direct ocean capture is one bucket of carbon dioxide removal. There are a lot of people that are using agricultural practices, such as regenerative farming or soil capture a biochar to capture CO2. And there are some really cool ones that are coming out that are fairly novel and still in the early stages of the development that are using electrochemical, or rather, I should say electricity to capture CO2 from moving streams of air. Those are a few examples of the different types of buckets. So there are many people that are working across many different spaces that are taking many approaches to removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.
Jason Jacobs: So let's say I was coming in. Like I don't have foundation in- in any of these areas, but if I believe that look, we should reduce our emissions for sure. And we should make our infrastructure more resilient for sure. But we also like need to sort this stuff out, you know, as much as we can and as quick as we can so that we can kinda minimize the bad things that happened, you know, in between now, and when we get back in equilibrium with the planet that we rely on to support us and- and other forms of life. So- so if I was there and I looked at this landscape and it all seems like a foreign language to me, like, how would one, or how would you for that matter go about assessing, like within this landscape, where do you anchor? And what's good about what's out there and what are the gaps? And if we're gonna do something here, what should we do? Like how does one even start?
Josh Santos: Yeah, that's a great question. It's a bit, it's a bit overwhelming, the amount of different ways that people can- can get at this. And I think that it goes back to what the end goal is, right? And the end goal is to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere permanently. And I've been really impressed and a huge supporter of the work that Stripe is doing on defining the criteria for carbon dioxide removal. And I don't remember all of their criteria specifically, but I would say that that's a great resource for people that are trying to come up to speed with how to evaluate the different options of ways in which we can remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.
There are two that I'll touch on right now that I think are extremely important. The first is cost, right? How much is it gonna cost us to remove one ton of CO2 from the atmosphere? And the second is permanence. Meaning how- how long is the CO2 going to stay out of the atmosphere once we pull it out, there are other metrics that are important in other ways to evaluate solutions. But I would say those are probably two of the most important ones that- that people should think about when evaluating the different types of solutions that are available.
Jason Jacobs: Now, who pays for carbon removal? Like where does the market come from?
Josh Santos: Yeah. So this is where we have taken a bit of a different approach from many people who are getting into the space right now. There has largely been a large opportunity for more people to begin buying carbon removal, but not many first movers. There are some big notable, first movers, such as Stripe and Microsoft and Shopify that are corporate entities starting to pay for carbon to be removed from the atmosphere. But there aren't enough at the scale of which we need to begin to make progress on the problem at the rate at which we need to.
So our approach to this has largely been to say, instead of waiting for these buyers to materialize for carbon removal, let's go where the market is today. And where the market is today for CO2 is exactly that, in the commercial CO2 market. And so our approach has largely been to take the CO2 that we pull from the atmosphere, and instead of trying to figure out a buyer or trying to work with tax credits or something else that isn't exactly reliable today, we are taking that CO2 and selling it to people who use CO2 for their commercial processes. Whether that's companies like breweries or research laboratories, or the growing number of startups that are doing CO2 utilization. There are many companies that use CO2 today as part of their process.
Now, going back to the Stripe criteria, we can get at the costs that is going to be attractive enough for these companies to actually buy CO2 from us. We are not yet getting at the permanence of that. And we know that, that is something that are going into this accepting. And our strategy to mitigate this is to use the capital and the revenue that comes from our CO2 sales to ultimately fund the development, to do the permanent sequestration down the line.
And the reason for that is because we can start capturing CO2 today and selling it today. We can do all of that immediately. The sequestration pathways, whether it's using geologic sequestration or having to develop our own is gonna take, it's gonna take time for us to do that. And it's gonna take capital for us to do that. And so we are using this as a sort of initial MVP to develop the revenue and fine tune the technology to a point where we can be able to fund the development of the more permanent removal solutions down the line ourselves.
Jason Jacobs: So you decided you want to work on climate change. You read this paper and decided that- that you wanted to do something in carbon capture, and that this ... Now, did you end up working with the team that wrote that paper and- and with that solution, or did that just set you on a path to find a solution from a different place?
Josh Santos: Yeah, it set us on a path to find a solution in different place. And so we've landed on this cooling tower solution as our cheap capital light way to deploy a distributed network of direct air capture processes across the entire country. What we do have on our team and the expertise that our we are building is an internal expertise to be able to reduce CO2 into other useful chemicals and products. And so we have somebody that's on our team right now that is an expert in different types of catalysts and materials to perform this exact kind of reaction and this exact kind of utilization of CO2. And so we're starting that work now, we're not waiting on it, but we are focusing more of our efforts on fine-tuning the capture, since that is the thing that's going to enable the rest of the work that we need to do down the line.
Jason Jacobs: Got it. And so when it sets you on that path, how did you get to cooling towers? What capture was happening in cooling towers, if any, and what type of capture will you be doing at- at cooling towers?
Daniel Cavero: So, yeah, like I was mentioning before we did this prototype for an in-house device that could capture CO2. And one day I was actually just talking to my father and my father owns a cooling tower and we were just talking about it. And I realized that the machine that we built is basically a very small cooling tower. It's basically a shower, small shower that puts a lot of water and air in contact, a lot of surface area designed for heat transfer, which so happens to be a very important part of a mass transfer device as well. So basically we decided, okay, why don't we put some of our solution into my dad's cooling tower? The pandemic was hitting very hard right then. So I'm from Venezuela, so flying to Venezuela was gonna be a problem. Um, [laughs] we might still do it, we must still do it, but we- we decided that was the way to go.
We made a small cooling tower in the backyard, actually of our house with a regeneration cycle attached to it. And yeah, the bomb squad showed up after the neighbors called looking at the device, it looked pretty sketchy, to be honest, we don't blame them. And yeah, we proved out that you could do it with a cooling tower.
Josh Santos: Yeah. Cooling towers have exactly the property that you need to enable aqueous carbon capture, which is they move huge amounts of air into contact with huge amounts of water already. So you don't have to build new pieces of equipment to do that. You can just tap into pieces of equipment that exists all around the country already. US is home to 2 million cooling towers today that we can go in retrofit to capture CO2 from the sky.
Jason Jacobs: And where do these cooling towers sit and what- what function do they serve? I mean, obviously their name is a bit of a telegraph there, but for whom?
Josh Santos: Yeah. Cooling towers exist in- in almost every, every industry that we can think of, right? So we have seen examples from some of our early partners and future partners of cooling towers that exist in dairy creamery, food processing, many commercial real estate buildings in the middle of cities like San Francisco have cooling towers on top of them to help manage and cool the HVAC system. We have cooling towers that we're working with at some chemical companies, oil refineries, and oil and gas plants have cooling towers. And cooling towers are one of the most fundamental pieces of any industrial process or any large scale cooling that needs to happen. And it's because they're the best way to cool down something. I mean, they use the fact that when water evaporates, it cools the immediate area around it to be able to provide large-scale cooling and any part of a process that needs it, whether it's a manufacturing process, that's making something more industrial like chemicals or an HVAC process that's keeping people in their homes and their offices cool, and comfortable.
Jason Jacobs: And where do these cooling towers sit in regards to their emissions footprint?
Josh Santos: Separate. So cooling towers today currently do not have, and are not thought of as any piece of equipment that could be used for carbon capture. They typically sit close to the process which they are providing cooling for. And so you may find them close to ... With our first commercial deployment, for example, they're very close to the pasteurization machines that the milk plant we're working with is using to pasteurize their milk. And so the water that's cooling the pasteurization machines go straight from those machines to the cooling tower to be cooled down and then back to the machines. It's very, very close to where the source of heat actually is for the process that they're cooling. They are entirely separate though from emissions footprints. So they're not related to smokestacks. They have no gases or flu streams passing through them. This is a new way that we've developed to- to basically enable overnight a piece of equipment that has already been built for a separate purpose to both serve that purpose and to serve the purpose of removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.
Jason Jacobs: Got it. So you're, you're essentially turning these cooling towers into carbon sucks, but it's not sucking carbon that's being produced at point of emissions. It's sucking carbon just from the air horizontally?
Josh Santos: I mean in the air. Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: Got it. And tell me a little bit about what is it that you're building that turns the cooling tower into this direct air capture device?
Josh Santos: Yeah. So our technology involves two core components. The first is the aqueous chemical solvent that we have mentioned a couple of times here. We've been developing that ourselves. We started in the backyard with our pseudo bomb that Daniel mentioned earlier. And-
Jason Jacobs: That's a crazy story.
Josh Santos: ... [laughs] we- we have a picture that we can show you. They're very nice people. [laughing].
Jason Jacobs: Are you friends with the neighbor ... Was that like an ice breaker? And now you're friends with the neighbors?
Josh Santos: Um, no. [laughing].
Daniel Cavero: They kept calling. So they called every day, even after the first day, they showed up and proved that we weren't building bombs, but as time went by, they showed up with less and less [laughs] EOD protection and- and less robots and a few bombs.
Josh Santos: The first time, the first time they showed up, they brought 15 officers shut down the block and had a robot outside. And the second time it was two guys in a car that showed up and said, "Could you please move your device away from the fence? Your neighbor would appreciate it." [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: I mean it ... If anything, it's a great story to show just the level of hustle to investors when you're out raising money, right? It's like, "Well, if I'll do it, I mean the bomb squad, whatever it doesn't phase me."
Josh Santos: That's right. That's right. And we now know that the SF bomb squad is very supportive of carbon removal efforts as well [laughing]. So-
Jason Jacobs: [laughs].
Daniel Cavero: [laughs].
Josh Santos: ... good for, good for the SF bomb squad.
Daniel Cavero: And they're quick to react.
Josh Santos: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: So there's two components. There's the aqueous solvent-
Josh Santos: Yup.
Jason Jacobs: ... is one of the components?
Josh Santos: So the aqueous solvent is one of them. And we're developing that now with the lab that we've built and a chemist that's joined our team out of the Yale Center for green chemistry. So we're optimizing that solution both on a lab bench and using the industrial prototype that we've developed to prove that our process can actually produce high, high quality CO2. Just the other day, we had numbers that were above 99% in terms of CO2 purity from the, from the back end of our process. So we're very excited about how pure the backend is and our solvent that we're optimizing is helping us not only improve that purity, but also optimize for minimization of the amount of heat that's required to regenerate the CO2 from the captured solution. So that's the first and the probably the most important aspect of what we're developing to implement on these cooling towers.
The second is that we're developing the system that has to go around the cooling tower. So the CO2, as we capture it within the cooling tower is stored in the water as a stable chemical intermediate. For us to get that CO2 back out of the water, we have to add heat into the water to reverse the capture reaction that the CO2 does when it's dissolved in the water. And we have to install the pieces of equipment that will help us get the CO2 from a sort of ambient pressure gaseous state into something that we can sell. And so we are designing the system to go around that and our value proposition to the cooling tower owners is that we're telling them that we're actually planning on paying for all of the capital to install this process ourselves.
So Noya is taking on the capital expenditure to install this process on to all of the cooling towers that we're deploying onto. In exchange for letting us deploy this system onto the cooling towers that they own, the owners will get a small percentage of the revenue that is generated from the sale of CO2. So from the cooling tower owners perspective, they pay nothing and see some amount of money in return for letting us use their system. And from the CO2 buyer's perspective, they get cheap, cheap, sustainably sourced CO2 that's locally produced, close to where they consume it.
Jason Jacobs: And in terms of either performance degradation or wear and tear on the cooling towers or anything like that, is there ... are there any effects, unintended consequences, negative repercussions, et cetera, from- from enabling the system to be built on the cooling tower?
Josh Santos: Yeah. There is a whole slew of tests that we are in the middle of right now to answer exactly this question. Our initial data shows that with many types of materials, our system can just be added and we can walk away until we need to go pick up the CO2 of course. For other systems, there are some additional protective measures that we may need to add onto the cooling tower to ensure its longevity. And we're working to mitigate all of these risks that we're identifying as we identify them.
You know, one of our strengths is probably in our ability to quickly iterate on different solutions for the different problems that we're facing. And we're gonna continue to take those head on to ensure that we are not causing more headaches for the cooling tower owners, then we are causing solutions.
Jason Jacobs: And any sense of what type of capacity there is per cooling tower in terms of the amount of carbon that can be pulled out of the air?
Josh Santos: Yeah, definitely. This is a critical question for us to answer. And one that is very difficult to answer. There- there's very limited public data available for what types of cooling towers are in operation in the country right now, and cooling towers come in all shapes and sizes. And since carbon capture depends on the airflow that the cooling tower is moving, it's hard to generalize, but from the early partners that we are speaking with and working with, we have a range of sizes that we've seen cooling towers come in, and the subsequent carbon capture we can expect from those different sizes.
And we're currently estimating that across the 2 million, the 2 million cooling towers that the US has operating right now, there is around six gigatons of CO2 that is already flowing through those cooling towers today for them to do the jobs that they're doing in normal operations.
So that's a huge opportunity for us. And one that, that number has some pretty large aerobars around. We're actually starting to partner with one of the largest cooling tower manufacturers in the world, to not only look at different ways that we can integrate our technology into the design of the cooling towers that they are making, but also to understand the types of customers that they have and what we should expect for market sizing and capture opportunity and things like that. So we're continuing to hone in on what the true amount is, but that's our first best estimate with the data that we have right now.
Jason Jacobs: But I- I just want to understand, because we talked earlier in the discussion and you said that the cooling towers were not directly a big source of emissions. And then we talked about how they could be removing carbon from the ambient air. So is the six gigatons your estimate for how much they could remove if you partnered with all two million cooling towers, or is the six million gigatons more reflection on the emissions footprint to power those cooling towers?
Josh Santos: That is an estimate on the amount of carbon dioxide that those cooling towers can remove today. And the reason for that is because they're already moving air, right? A core part of their function is that they pull in ambient air to remove the evaporative losses that the water within the cooling tower is seeing as it cools, whatever it's cooling. And so they're already moving huge amounts of air in part of their operations by design. And so if you look at the amount of air that's flowing through those cooling towers, and then from that flow rate back out, the amount of carbon dioxide that is in the air based on the fact that air is 414PPM carbon dioxide, that's the number that we arrive at.
So we arrive at six gigatons of CO2 already moving through all of these pieces of equipment and already waiting to be pulled from them with a little bit of changes that we can make to these systems.
Jason Jacobs: Uh- huh. And I mean, I know Breakthrough Energy Ventures, for example, has a half a gigaton threshold. So if there's a six gig, a ton of potential, I have to assume that that's a lot, but put some context around that how many gigatons is a lot and why?
Josh Santos: Yeah, so we as a species of humans, we emit around 40 gigatons of CO2 every year. So that's sort of like all things equal, that's how much we're adding into the atmosphere each year. Now the folks at CarbonPlan have recently released a fantastic book on carbon dioxide removal. And everybody that is interested in learning more about carbon removal should go in and read it it's available for free online. And the folks at CarbonPlan estimate that with all of the ongoing efforts that are happening to decarbonize, you know, almost every industry across the world, we're still gonna have around ... And I forget the exact numbers, but from what I can remember, it's around one to five gigatons of CO2 emissions left that are just going to be really, really hard to remove. And so that's sort of the minimum threshold of what a lot of people are looking at in terms of how much carbon removal is going to be needed for us to reach net neutral as a planetary species.
And then anything on top of that is negative emissions. So we're beginning to pull CO2 out of the atmosphere. And so this six gigaton opportunity here is a huge one, because with cooling towers in the US alone, you can already start to imagine a world where ... we're at that point, right? We are at the point where we've captured the amount of CO2 that we need to- to become net neutral as a species after everything else has reached its de-carbonization goals.
Jason Jacobs: And we talked a bit before about how we've been able to, you know, the technology has been there for a long time and that the issue has been cost. So I'd be interested in better understanding the cost of using your technology to remove the carbon using these cooling towers. I'd also be interested in the price that the breweries and others that are purchasing the carbon are willing to pay. And finally, it'd be good to understand how that compares to the cost of the other types of solutions out there. And to the extent that there's a magic number, what that magic number is and why. So that's like 10 questions all baked into one. I'm not gonna repeat it. No, I'm just kidding.
Josh Santos: [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: But, uh, no that, I mean, take that in whatever order you want, but you know, the gears are firing here in terms of trying to put the things that you just said into context.
Josh Santos: Yeah, definitely. So in the commercial CO2 market right now, there are two sub categories. There's, what's referred to as packaged gas, and what's referred to as bulk gas. Packaged gas is any sort of cylinder that you've ever seen, right? So if you've ever gotten a balloon filled up at a grocery store, the helium and that balloon is packaged gas, the bulk side is typically what companies that use a lot of CO2 will- will get their CO2 delivered as, so companies like breweries or some larger chemical companies typically get CO2 delivered in bulk. And that just essentially means that they're storing it onsite in the liquid phase so that they can fit more CO2 per unit area, right? It just takes up less space.
So the costs differ depending on which sub category you're looking at. On the bulk side, we have seen costs get down to as low as, as low as $125 per ton of CO2. And that's for very high amounts of consumption. We've seen costs sit around $300 per ton for bulk storage as well, for bulk delivery as well. So there's definitely a variance and there are a few factors that play into the CO2 pricing. Volume is one, market dynamics such as supply is another, there's a really interesting thing about CO2 where it's production rate depends on the ethanol industry and the ammonia industry, because the current production sources of CO2 are those two industries, largely in the United States. It's sort of taken out of the flue gas of an ethanol plant and then cleaned and then delivered to wherever it needs to go.
And so when ethanol isn't being produced and we saw this actually last year, right at the heart of the pandemic, when ethanol isn't produced you're not getting any CO2. And so there was a CO2 shortage nationwide, in fact, globally, I think because all of the factories were shut down and people weren't making ethanol, so people weren't making CO2. So market dynamics such as that all play into the price, but the price of 125 to 300 is roughly what we see for bulk. For- for packaged gas, that number jumps by, uh, about an order of magnitude. And the reason for that is because you are delivering it in smaller quantities. So there's more typically thought of this more costs required to get it from the sort of bulk phase into a cylinder, and then that cylinder to wherever it needs to go.
And so we're seeing costs of around 3000 to 7,000 plus dollars per ton. When you take the amount of CO2 that is in a cylinder and- and sort of normalize that onto a per ton basis.
Jason Jacobs: And how are you thinking about as you start to capture more carbon using these cooling towers? Well, actually before we even get to who buys it, how are you thinking about who to work with on the cooling tower size? You mentioned there's 2 million of them and there's a whole lot of different types of companies that- that have them. So are you just casting a wide net and you'll work with anyone that'll work with you, or are there certain criteria that you're using to prioritize the first wave of partners?
Josh Santos: Yeah, I think in the long run, we will want to work with everybody that operates a cooling tower there ... As long as we are able to tap into the tower and it's structurally sound and, you know, not it's in good running condition then it is something we will want to tap into.
To start, we are looking at partners that are going to have a less mission, critical reliance on their cooling tower, because I think it just ... it makes sense for us, and it's gonna make a lot more sense for them to not sort of rely all of their business on this, this thing that we know is going to work, but that we can only sort of say like, "Hey, just trust us. We built a small one, like, look at our small one." Like, no, we need to be a little more strategic than that.
So what we found is that there's some good traction on the ... from commercial real estate owners who operate cooling towers to- to run their HVAC systems that are really excited about partnering with us. And they all have ESG goals that they have set to reduce their own emissions. And they all have a lot of embodied emissions in the fact that their buildings were made with concrete and steel and concrete and steel probably made in a way that they made it a lot of CO2. So they are actually really motivated to work with us just from the environmental standpoint. They also like the revenue generation standpoint as well, but the environmental standpoint is- is a good in for them. And so we're looking at starting with a lot of those folks.
And that's a really cool story for us, because essentially that's helping us get closer to our vision of having these types of processes all across largely populated urban areas on top of every skyscraper in San Francisco, in New York city in Chicago, that's pulling CO2 out of the air in a distributed network and utilizing it in some way. Whether it's through sale into the market or through, you know, off taking to a storage site or some other utilization pathway that will develop in the future. So real estate is where we're starting
Jason Jacobs: In terms of ... I mean, you mentioned, it sounds like there's some special sauce in at least on the ... What did you call it? The equinus chemical side?
Josh Santos: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: That's why I take notes as I go, because I'm not that smart to remember that, but that there's some special sauce in the actual capture, but I also thought I heard you mentioned earlier in this discussion that there's special sauce in terms of converting the carbon to- to saleable product. Is that true? Or how do you think about that? And also, how do you think about focus areas in terms of the bulk versus packaged and why?
Josh Santos: Yeah, so there's definitely special sauce in the aqueous chemical solvent that we're using in the way that we're designing this carbon sponge. And we've filed provisional patent already around this system, and one that will enable us to begin to build up these protective modes that we're gonna wanna have. The special sauce around the utilization will come when we have developed the technologies that will allow us to turn CO2 into other chemicals. So in the pathway where we're just selling CO2, there isn't much legal sauce in just the pressurization of CO2 itself. People can pressurize CO2, you can get a compressor on- on Amazon right now, if you wanted to and pressurize your own CO2. But our special sauce is really in the process where we're utilizing cooling towers as carbon capture machines and in the specific way in which we're doing that with all of the related system that we're designing around it.
Jason Jacobs: Got it. So the actual selling it then like that's not too differentiated, but it's a way to fund the more differentiated longer term in terms of permanence?
Josh Santos: I would say that that's largely accurate the way that it is differentiated just comes down to cost. So the fact that we're producing it locally to the point of where people are buying it from, helps them save on costs that they would otherwise have to pay for moving CO2 from where it's usually generated at as some ethanol or ammonia plant, which is typically not local to wherever their business is. So we differentiate on costs when we're selling it into the current market.
Jason Jacobs: Now, the prices that you mentioned that they sounded like those were the market rates, like the 125 to 300 a ton, or the 3000 to 7,000 a ton for the packaged gas, who do they tend to buy from today? And- and is that stuff that came through direct air capture or kind of recycled carbon, if you will, or is it coming through a different, maybe less sustainable approach?
Josh Santos: Yeah. So the people that are currently buying CO2 are buying it from a handful of companies. There are around four or five companies that are typically selling CO2 in the market right now companies like [inaudible 00:43:01], Linde, Air Products are some of the bigger players and not just CO2 sales, but just industrial gases in general. And so that's where they're likely getting it from now.
Jason Jacobs: And they're paying in that ... in the ranges that you mentioned?
Josh Santos: Correct.
Jason Jacobs: And what about ... so those companies that sell it, like where are they getting the- the carbon from?
Josh Santos: Yeah, so the- the main source of CO2 in the US is ethanol production. So ethanol made from corn and ... more specifically. And the reason for that is because when you make ethanol, you're basically taking sugars that come from corn, that you've grinded down, you feed it to yeast, the yeast, eat up the sugars, and then they sort of emit CO2 as part of their fermentation process. That CO2 is taken by many of these types of companies and purified to whatever purity their customers want. Typically, above 99% is market purity rates that people are using. And they take the gas from the ethanol plant or the ammonia plant, which is the second largest source of CO2. And then they distribute it to their customers. What we've seen though, is that in the process of taking corn from corn or from a seed even to ethanol, and then CO2, there are a lot of embodied emissions in that process itself. They're embodied emissions in the land use that the corn sits on, embodied emissions and the actual growing and harvesting of corn, of the processing of corn.
And then you sort of have to do all of that in order to get to the other emission, which is CO2. And so the CO2 is being created new from the corn and- and it's being distributed where it ultimately wound up back in the atmosphere. We are currently the only source of commercial recycled CO2 that is available on the market. That just is sort of recycling what we already have access to all around us. And so there currently isn't another company that's selling at least not another commercial industrial gas company that's selling recycled CO2 in the same way that we are.
Jason Jacobs: So why wouldn't a carbon engineering, for example, sell into the commercial market? 'Cause they're ... I mean, they're equipped to do it today, right?
Josh Santos: Yeah. I, you know, I can't comment on their priorities and- and how they're choosing to spend their time. They, from what I know have a lot on their plate and they have some really big, exciting partnerships that they're building for, with some people that are going to CO2 for enhanced oil recovery. And so that's sort of what I know about their plans. And I can't comment on anything beyond that in terms of what might prevent a- a company like that from selling CO2 into the marketplace might just be a combination of priorities. Maybe they want to prioritize sequestration first and have an easier pathway to doing that. Or maybe they want to prioritize utilization or- or maybe the costs that they're seeing are too high as well. And the cost that they're seeing would actually prohibit them from selling CO2 into the market, which is not the situation that we're in.
Jason Jacobs: And in terms of pricing, how does your cost structure compare to the, you know, the corn ethanol players that you mentioned, and then how are you planning to price relative to them and- and other alternatives when you do sell into the markets for companies looking to purchase carbon?
Josh Santos: Yeah. So right now with those numbers that I just gave you, we can start with packaged gas and we can start selling that at a very healthy margin.
Jason Jacobs: At similar pricing to what's in the market today?
Josh Santos: At half the price even as what is on the market today, we can sell it for at a healthy margin. And that's with our worst case, an optimized design of our first commercial prototype that we're developing right now. And our costs over time, we have a path to being under $100 per ton. And so we have a strong path into getting into the bulk gas space and actually getting into being able to be a strong replacement for what people are currently seeing for the main source of their CO2. That's gonna take some optimization and we have a lot of work to do until we get there, but we have already identified the things that we need to do and the work that needs to happen for us to get from where we are today to that cost.
Jason Jacobs: Now you mentioned that you were starting selling into commercial, but ultimately, you know, we're gonna use that to bootstrap the development of a more permanent solution. Is that because permanence is where you can have a bigger impact or is it because that's where the- the upside is as well financially? Like how big a market do you think the commercial market could be if you never did anything beyond it?
Josh Santos: Yeah. So we have a ... it's a bit of a- a mass problem. When you look at how much CO2 needs to be removed, compared to how much the commercial market can absorb. From what we understand today, the US market consumes around 64 million tons of CO2 each year. We need to remove around 1500 billion tons, 1.5 trillion, tons from the atmosphere to get back to pre-industrial levels. And we can become net negative if we remove 40 billion tons from the atmosphere. That is many orders of magnitude larger than what the commercial market is going to be able to absorb. And so we were planning on starting there because it's fastest and will give us a path for growth, but ultimately the sequestration pathway is going to be required of us to continue growing beyond the commercial market. And we are very bullish on the commercial still to market. We think that with all of the companies that are entering the market space now and beginning to utilize CO2, that that market will continue to grow. We do not believe that it's going to grow by around four orders of magnitude.
And so, we need to develop other places to put the CO2 that we capture and sequestration is a great one, because we're seeing more companies begin to enter the carbon removal market as buyers. And so, that market we're bullish on as well. And we believe that there was going to be strong growth in the amount of people that are paying for carbon removal, both on the corporate side and on the government and public side that will give us a strong path to both impact growth and to revenue growth.
Jason Jacobs: Now, the move to the more permanence, like you said, if you were not mission-driven and you're just looking to print as much money as you could, would you stay in the commercial market solely for longer, or do you believe that an order selfishly or non-mission driven if you're just looking to build the biggest company that you could, from a financial standpoint, would you shift into permanents on the same trajectory that you're on?
Josh Santos: Yeah. There are a lot of benefits on the CO2 utilization side in terms of converting CO2 into other useful chemicals and products that also have a component of permanence to it. And in some cases, those types of companies can afford to pay a bit higher of a price for the CO2 that they're using because the end product that they're selling is valuable. And so they can take a little bit of a, of a cost hit on the CO2, but it's because they can make it up on the other side. And so their strong revenue opportunity on CO2 utilization with other types of chemicals and converting CO2 into other products right now as well. We are mission driven so we do wanna be always conscious of that. But we are lucky in the fact that they're strong revenue potential on- on sort of both sides of what we're doing right on the commercial CO2 sales side and the future permanent sequestration utilization side.
There's good revenue potential on all of them. And so from the business perspective, and if I'm just ... if I'm acting as Mr. Burns from the Simpsons who only cares about making as much money as possible, then I would want to do both because I would want to ensure that I give myself as much possibility to utilize both of those pathways as possible.
Jason Jacobs: Correct me if I'm wrong, but even without permanence, I mean, there's a mission story there in that recycled CO2 is better than non recycled CO2, right?
Josh Santos: It is, absolutely. And we are very pleased with the fact that the immediate first product that we're starting out with is going to be a net positive for the world, but we need to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. And for us to be able to maintain a two degree C under two degree C global temperature wise ... rise, we need to be able to do that. And so, our mission when we first started talking about this and the stair pitch that Daniel mentioned was to reverse climate change. And we are not gonna be able to do that by just selling CO2 to breweries in research labs, we need to get to the point where we are permanently sequestering it, and that is our long-term goal and where we're headed.
Jason Jacobs: And I'll make up an acronym here. But what is your, what is your P to P look like, your path to permanence in terms of what are the key phases as you end up turning that corner and introducing permanence to your offering. And- and also, what does it look like in terms of timelines if you had to guess?
Josh Santos: Yeah. So our P to P, I like that, that acronym actually that one may be, uh, may- may stick around is that we will scale our sort of commercial CO2 side locally within a geography within San Francisco is where we're starting. And we're going to do that until we can either build up enough knowledge around what it takes to permit license and construct the sequestration pipeline, or until one of the two sequestration sites in California goes under operation. We'd love to partner our way into permanent sequestration. It would be cheaper and faster for us to do that. And we are very open to starting with that. I think in the longterm, what's exciting about starting in California is that ... and I know you just had Sarah Saltzer on your pod not too long ago.
Jason Jacobs: For your introduction, so thanks for that.
Josh Santos: Yeah, yeah, no, I was really happy to see that you guys were able to make that work. What she really helped us understand. And in one of the big reports that she published was that CO2 storage in the state of California has the potential size of around six gigatons, adjusting the salient reservoirs that California has paying out without really any utilization. So the fact that we're starting in San Francisco really enables us to build up a localized, not just a localized commercial market, but also a localized pathway for CO2 sequestration. We think that we'll be able to start this work in the next two to three years. And our goal is to have CO2 going into the ground no later than at least four years from now.
So that's kind of where we're headed. We'd love to cut that in half. And like I said, partnering is really going to help us get there, but that's sort of the timeline that we have for ourselves right now.
Jason Jacobs: And would that be through, I mean, would you get certified as an offset that you could then sell to companies that need to offset the emissions footprints that they can decarbonize on their own?
Josh Santos: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We see that the low carbon fuel standard is a great way for us to begin taking advantage of those types of carbon offsets. We're excited about the opportunity that the new administration may have for similar types of incentives and given the new raise and the carbon price, it seems like we may be heading in that direction. So yes, definitely carbon offsets are a great way that we can take advantage of that.
But like I said, I ... we are bullish on the fact that there are more and more companies that are working to undo their historic emissions that are going to want to pay for this to happen. Consumers are starting to demand more action from their ... the companies that they purchase products from. And we are very optimistic about the future where companies are paying sequesters and offsetters to clean up the mess that they put into the atmosphere. And so that is the future that we have conviction around.
Jason Jacobs: And so if you're, let's say five years out or 10 years out, what does that mix look like in terms of the percentage of your revenues that come from offsets versus the percentage that comes from the commercial market?
Josh Santos: Yeah, it's, it's like most things in the future. The prediction is as clear as a foggy day in San Francisco. But from what we know right now, we know that we have revenue potential of around $8 billion in the US, just from the commercial CO2 market. And that's with consumption numbers in the range that they are today, as you start to look at other uses of CO2, I mean, we have six gigatons of CO2 that we can capture with equipment that already exists right now. And putting current day costs on carbon for sequestering of around $150 per ton, which is a little bit lower than what the low carbon fuel standard will pay you for sequestering CO2, which is $200. We see a very strong revenue potential in the sequestration pathway alone, not even talking about the utilization pathway, where we're converting CO2 into other chemicals, which is a whole other really large number that we could estimate.
So I would say right now the commercial side will be a significant but small percentage of our future revenues, and where our growth is really going to come from in the longterm is from sequestration and utilization of the CO2 that we will develop.
Jason Jacobs: And can you talk a bit about your funding to date and future capital needs as it relates to both the amount of capital, but also the type of capital that you anticipate utilizing?
Josh Santos: Definitely. Last year we raised a venture round of funding was just over a million dollars, $1.2 million from 50 years, lower carbon capital and Y Combinator. So we are in Y Combinator right now, we have, as my Chrome extension tells me 18 days until demo day at the time of this recording. And- and so we have been able to build an industrial prototype and we are planning on funding our first, at least our first commercial deployment with that. And what's looking to be our second as well, and we will need another ... we will need future financing to fund all of the capital expenditures that our processes will have. There is a point where we will be able to transition over from using venture for that funding to using more project finance and debt funding for the money that we'll need to build these projects down the line. Once we are able to better predict and understand not just the capture capacity, but more around the installation costs and contingency costs and just entering a lot of the questions that we still have and are currently starting to answer.
So we definitely wanna be able to move away from venture to project finance for that, but we will need venture to grow the business and really scale at the speed at which ... not just at the speed that we'll be able to, but the speed at which the problem that we're solving needs.
Jason Jacobs: And do you think that this type of company fits well into ... I mean, clearly it fits well into the venture scale ambition. If- if you believe that carbon removal has a big role in our future, which- which I do, but what about timelines?
Josh Santos: Yeah, so we believe that we have a strong opportunity to do this very fast. When did we start working on our first commercial deployment?
Daniel Cavero: Late January.
Josh Santos: Late January. So we started working on it a couple of months ago, and we are planning on having that commercial deployment installed and operational by the end of this month. And so we can do this very fast and that commercial deployment is going to be able to pull, we're estimating around half a ton to one ton of CO2 from the air per day. And so because of the fact that we are utilizing equipment that already exists and infrastructure that is already there, we can slash these timelines that other folks may have in installing their direct air capture processes to a small fraction of what they were. And we have a world where we can scale this very rapidly, not just across different industries, but also across many locations and geographies. And, uh, get to a point where, you know, we're 5X-ing the amount of CO2 that we're capturing, if not more year over year, every year for the next 10 years, because that's how many cooling towers there are in the US and that's the speed at which we're ready to move with solving this problem.
Jason Jacobs: And I guess one question I didn't ask is just for anyone listening, that's excited about what you're doing. Who do you want to hear from and how the MCJ community be helpful for you?
Josh Santos: Yeah. So if you own a cooling tower and want to join the fight against climate change and become a carbon removal site, then reach out to us and let us know. You can contact us through our website. Noyalabs.com, N-O-Y-Alabs.com. If you are in San Francisco and you consume CO2 for your process, and you wanna be, uh, an early customer, then reach out to us as well. And if you are making a transition into climate, which I know a lot of MCJ people are from whatever industry you- you left, we are hiring right now. We're looking for a chemical engineer to help us continue to optimize our process. But as we raise additional rounds of funding and begin to scale the team more and more, then we're going to need very, very different sets of skill sets. People that have operational expertise, people that have sales expertise, people that have experience with constructing capital projects.
So if any of this sounds interesting to you and you wanna learn more about open roles that we have to do, or don't have then reach out to us and- and let's talk about it.
Jason Jacobs: And guys, is there anything I didn't ask you that I should have, or any parting words for listeners?
Josh Santos: Yeah. It is just been really encouraging to see the growth in the number of people that are getting into climate and getting into carbon removal and starting to work on this problem. We love it. And we encourage anybody that is currently thinking about making a transition to climate, whether it's with us or through another company, there are plenty of great climate companies out there that are doing amazing work, do it. Both of us come from non climate backgrounds. And we have been the most fulfilled, I think, in our work that we've ever felt in our entire life. So, if only for achieving some higher tier of the Maslow hierarchy, then we strongly recommend that you- you make the jump into climate.
Jason Jacobs: And great for neighborly relations as well, right?
Josh Santos: That is-
Daniel Cavero: Exactly [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: [laughs].
Josh Santos: But I don't know if we're, I don't know if we're the people to go to for neighborly relations.
Jason Jacobs: [laughs].
Josh Santos: We're the people to go to, if you're building something that looks like a bomb and wants to get the squad off your back, but- [laughs]
Jason Jacobs: Well, what a long form substantive wide-ranging and awesome discussion. So guys, thanks so much for being so generous with your time. It's exciting what you're doing, and I wish you every success.
Josh Santos: Thanks, Jason.
Daniel Cavero: Thanks Jason.
Josh Santos: We really appreciate the time and having us on.
Daniel Cavero: Yes, it's great.
Jason Jacobs: Hey, everyone, Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co. Note that is .co not that com. Someday we'll get the .com, but right now, .co. You can also find me on Twitter at JJacobs22, where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The lawyers made me say that, thank you.
