Episode 167: Michael Terrell, Google
Today's guest is Michael Terrell, Director of Energy at Google.
Michael is the Director of Energy at Google, where he leads global strategy and 24/7 carbon-free energy initiatives for Google's data centers and global energy portfolio. In this role, he has advanced new approaches to Google's procurement of over 5GW of renewable power, pioneered groundbreaking renewable energy purchase programs, and delivered landmark projects such as converting coal plants to data centers. Before joining Google in the early 2000s, Michael worked in energy and climate law and policy. In addition, he's held various roles in the Federal government, including the White House Council on Environmental Quality under President Clinton, where he helped guide US policy on energy and environmental issues. Michael holds a JD from the University of Michigan, an MS from Yale University's Environment School, and a BS from The University of the South.
I was looking forward to sitting down with Michael because Google has a massive footprint and influence as a tech leader. In this episode, Michael gives me an overview of his role as the Director of Energy, how his family's coal mining company influenced his climate journey, and key learnings he's had over the past 14 years at Google. We dive into Google's clean energy commitments, how the company has evolved since the early 00s, and where the future lies for the tech giant. I also pepper Michael with questions about his thoughts on carbon capture, if natural gas and fossil fuel companies fit into the clean energy transition, and what policies would accelerate Google's initiatives and a greener future. Micheal is a fantastic guest.
Enjoy the show!
You can find me on twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@mcjcollective.com, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.
Episode recorded June 25th, 2021
In Today's episode we cover:
Michael's purview at Google and his role as Director of Energy
How growing up in a family that ran a coal mining company motivated him to focus on climate
The distinction between working on climate and working in energy
Michael's climate charter at Google, the energy footprint when he started at Google, and how it has evolved for the last two decades
Where Google is in its clean energy transition, where the company need to go, and how Michael and his team think about phasing and staging to achieve a cleaner future
Balancing the health of a massive company while also working on the most sustainable solutions
The biggest surprises and key learnings for Michael in the last 14 years at Google
Why Google is a driver of change and if they hope the infrastructure will continue to innovate, so they don't need to lead
Essential solutions outside Google's control that would most accelerate the company's progress, and from a non-google standpoint, what holds back the clean energy transition
How the Google team determines what technologies to focus on
A discussion on whether offsets and carbon markets should play a role in the future and what that role would look like
The role smart consumption plays in Google's decarbonization commitments
The importance of individuals caring about climate change and how that can drive change
Key policy initiatives that would accelerate Google's clean energy transition and the importance of policy in addressing climate change
Michael's thoughts on direct air capture, carbon removal, and carbon capture/storage
Whether natural gas fits into the future or if it's just a bridge to get us to clean energy sources
Where Google lands on nuclear options
A discussion about fossil fuel companies and if they are part of the clean energy future
Michael's most significant achievements at Google
Areas Michael hopes future entrepreneurs are focusing on to address climate change and advice he has for founders
What has changed since Michael worked in politics and why he's more optimistic Today
Links to topics discussed in this episode:
Google Sustainability Initiatives - https://sustainability.google/commitments/
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Jason Jacobs: Hey everyone, Jason here. I am the My Climate Journey show host. Before we get going I wanted to take a minute a tell you about the My Climate Journey, or MCJ as we call it, membership option. Membership came to be because there were a bunch of people that were listening to the show that weren't just looking for education, but they were longing for a peer group as well. So we set up a Slack community for those people, that's now mushroomed into more than 1300 members.
There is an application to become a member. It's not an exclusive thing, there's four criteria we screen for: determination to tackle the problem of climate change; ambition to work on the most impactful solution areas; optimism that we can make a dent and that we're not wasting our time for trying; and a collaborative spirit. Beyond that, the more diversity the better. There's a bunch of great things that have come out of that community: a number of founding teams that have met in there; a number of non-profits that have been established; a bunch of hiring that's been done; a bunch of companies that have raised capital in there; a bunch of funds that have gotten limited partners or investors for their funds in there; as well as a bunch of events and programming by members and for members; and some open-sourced projects that are getting actively worked on that hatched in there as well.
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Hello everyone. This is Jason Jacobs and welcome to My Climate Journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests, to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change, and try to figure out how people like you and I can help.
Today's guest is Michael Terrell global head of energy at Google. Michael leads global energy market strategy and 24/7 carbon free energy initiatives for Google's data centers and global energy portfolio. In this role, he has advanced new approaches to Google's procurement of over 5GW of renewable power, pioneered groundbreaking renewable energy purchase programs, and delivered landmark projects such as converting coal plants to data centers. Before joining Google, Michael worked as an attorney at leading energy firm and held several roles in the Federal government, including the White House Council on Environmental Quality.
I was excited for this one because Google has got such a big footprint, so what they do really matters. And they've also been doing a lot and really kind of setting the tone for how big corporates can play a role in accelerating the clean energy transition. We have a great discussion in this episode about Google's journey, where they started, when they started, why they started, the different phases and twists and turns, where they are today, where they're going, what else outside of the scope of Google control can help accelerate their efforts.
And we also talk about Michael's journey, coming from a coal mining family and how he got into clean energy, when and why he got into clean energy, and the different turns and twists he's had in his our journey as well. Michael, welcome to show.
Michael Terrell: Thanks for having me, Jason.
Jason Jacobs: Thanks for coming. Yeah, such a thrill to have you on the show. I think I first got turned on to you when I read the recent partnership news with you and Fervo, and asked Tim Latimer to make the connection. I'm so thankful that he did, and so thankful that you agreed to come on our little podcast.
Michael Terrell: Yeah, it's great to be here.
Jason Jacobs: So maybe for starters, just talk a bit about Google and about your perch and purview at Google.
Michael Terrell: Yeah, so I lead energy globally at Google. Most people don't think about energy when they think of Google, but we're actually a very large energy consumer because of the data centers that we operate around the world. And so my job is to oversee the, the operations of that, of the energy of the data centers, the policy and the market work that we do related to that, the technology development, and just the overall portfolio management of our energy portfolio.
Jason Jacobs: Nice. And, and what it is that led you down this path. And I cheated a little bit, because I've listened to some other podcasts that you've been on recently, but I won't telegraph. What is it that first led you to get into energy, and to end up in the seat that you're in?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I think you're probably referring to the fact that my origin story goes way back. You know, my father, my uncle, and my grandfather ran a coal mining company in Alabama where I grew up. And I spent a lot of time with them, and time at the mines playing with rocks. That led to an interest in geology. I became a geology major in college and, you know, went from there.
But, you know, my interest in this space is really, you know, goes that far back. And, you know, and I've sort of grown from there ever since.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And I'm just curious, do you distinguish in your mind between... Is working on climate and working in energy, are they synonyms? Or, how do you think about the areas of overlap and maybe the differences between the two?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually was like originally, you know, more interested in the sort, the natural resource side of things. In college, I went out and did cave research for the park service in Oregon and was really fascinated by the intersection of, and the environment and federal policy. And that actually led me to Washington, D.C. and I got a job working at the White House right after I got out of college in the environmental office there. And, you know, we spent quite a bit of time with Al Gore in those days. This was in the Clinton administration.
And, you know, I saw him give his climate talk and it really moved me and really got me interesting in this space in general. And it really got me interested in this intersection of energy and climate. And so I, I really, at that point sort of shifted, you know, my interests more towards the energy side, which made sense since I came out of a family that was in the coal business, and really sort of went from there. And so that's how I got into energy initially, was just watching him give, you know, he's presentation which, you know, I think you've had previous guests who also have [laughs] were at the, the White House in those days. You know, it was just a white board and a slide carousel, it's wasn't, you know, by any means the presentation that he gave in the movie.
Jason Jacobs: And so what was the state of the state when you joined Google 14 years ago? D- I mean, did you join in an energy capacity, or did that evolve over the course of your tenure?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I did to some extent. It was more of a climate capacity. Not long after Google went public, they launched Google.org, the philanthropy for the company. And the idea was to focus in, in several areas, one of them being energy and climate, and they were looking for people who had expertise in the space. And I had been working, you know, in various roles since I got out of the White House related to that and had just, for whatever reason, always been interested in Silicon Valley and the opportunity for business to help solve some of these problems at a very large scale.
And so that's what peaked my interest in Google. And once I was out at Google, served in a number of roles which have led me to where I am now.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And what did the energy footprint look like when you came in, and maybe contrast that to where Google sits today?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, you know, initially we really thought that our intersection with energy was going to be through the philanthropy, and we had an electric vehicle project. We did a project around making renewable energy cheaper. But I really started to see, and really started to interact with people more on the, the operations and the data center side of the company. And you can see that it was growing really, really quickly. And that, you know, we were building out what's, you know, eventually become a massive compute infrastructure. And that, you know, in that sense, we were a real electricity consumer, you know, interacting with the market on a daily basis. And I just found that really interesting. Uh, they, they needed help. I went over and started working with that group, and then have helped build the work since then.
So, you know, back when I started it was, you know, not a terribly big footprint. But now, it's, you know, we probably use enough energy that would be, I would say, the equivalent of, you know, two San Franciscos if you looked at our global power usage, which is about 12TW hours, you know, and still growing. We've grown, you know, about 20% year over year as interest in the internet has grown and as the business has grown.
So it's a, it's a pretty massive portfolio. I mean, we're a very large power consumer and we have operations all over the world. And, you know, I, it's not necessarily, like I mentioned before, the first thing people think about when they think of Google. But, you know, we're serving a billion hours of YouTube of day, and a h- hundred billion gmails a week. And so, that's take a lot of compute power.
Jason Jacobs: And what's the charter of the energy organization?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I mean, so it, you know, it's really to manage that energy portfolio. And so, you know, the first of it's just ensuring that, you know, we keep the lights on and that we can run the business. But second is really looking out forward to the future and how do we, you know, adapt the portfolio to meet the needs of the business moving forward. And then lastly, because electricity has historically been the largest share of Google's carbon footprint, you know, how do we make a transformation to carbon-free power, and that's become a very big focus. It was in the early days, but certainly as we've gotten bigger and the portfolio's gotten bigger it's become even more of a focus.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And can you talk a bit about where you are in that transition, and then subsequently, where you're going and how you kind of think about phasing and staging to get there?
Michael Terrell: We've been at this now for over a decade, but in some ways we're, we're still just getting started. You know, when we first really tried to start tackling the carbon footprint associated with our operations, you know, really the only tool available was just to go carbon neutral and go out and buy carbon offsets.
And so in 2007, we made a pledge as a company to do that. And then, you know, we, we started to explore were there other things we could do? Could we go out and ink deals for renewable energy directly? We figured out a way to do that, and we did our first deal in 2010. In 2012, we, we set a goal to match 100% of our electricity consumption with renewable energy purchases. And I can tell you, at the time, we had no idea how we were going to pull it off, or how long it was going to take. And we just have seen this amazing transformation in the energy space, where wind and solar prices have gotten to historic lows, and we found other ways to go out and buy that power in bulk, and so we actually hit that goal in 2017, many years ahead of when we thought we would.
And so, okay, well what do you do after that? Well, you... If you've matched your electricity consumption on an annual basis with renewable energy purchases, the next move is to really cover every hour of every day in every location, you know, what we call 24/7 carbon-free energy. And so, you know, we were very clear when we hit that goal in 2017 that, hey, you know, we still have a lot of work to do. This is big milestone, but at the end of the day you want to run your business on carbon-free energy all the time everywhere.
And so, we, we started to some work in that, tried to understand a little bit better what that meant for us. And last year we felt confident enough to go out and actually set a target for the company, so we're aiming now to, to achieve 24/7 carbon-free energy by 2030, which again, if you go back to 2007 or 2012, I mean, that kind of a goal would have been just absolutely unthinkable. But, you know, we've set it and we're going to work toward it.
Jason Jacobs: And how to think about which aspects to take on yourselves and which ones to partner, or work with external sources?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, it's not something that we feel like we can solve ourselves. It's such a challenging problem, especially in markets around the world. And I think another fundamental premise to this is that, you know, we really want to not only do this for Google, but lead the way for everybody and to get... You know, at the end of the day we want to get the electricity grids to carbon-free energy 24/7.
And so, you know, we absolutely have to work with others to do that. And we really think about it in, in three ways, you know, first is just how we transact for energy and working with renewable energy developers, battery companies, and others, to mix and match different resources, to handle our supply now using the technology that's available now.
Second, we've got a eh, really advanced technology. You know, whether it's the technology in how we manage our energy portfolio, for example maybe using machine learning to make ourselves more efficient, or looking at new power generation technologies, or new ways of using existing power generation technologies. And that gets to the deal we recently announced with Fervo that looks at advanced geothermal energy, which we think is really promising not only for us but for the grid.
And then lastly, moving the needle on policy and working with partners there to, you know, accelerate the transformation to a carbon-free energy grid for everybody. So it's, it's a very broad based effort, very multi-faceted, and involves, you know, a lot of partners beyond just Google.
Jason Jacobs: And when you go about making these decisions, week in, month in, you know, year in and out, how much does doing things because it's the right thing to do for society factor in versus just strictly selfishly what's in the best interest of the company and of dollars and cents? And how much does it have to factor in to do the right thing? Do you have to sacrifice short-term performance, for example?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I mean, going back to when I was working for the park service, and, you know, then eventually the White House, I really became dedicated to the environment, and to climate change, and wanted to build my career around it. And, you know, the question has always been, Where can I be where I can have the greatest impact? And, you know, for while I thought it was in Washington, D.C. and working on public policy, and I think that is incredibly important and does have a huge role to play in how we're going to solve this problem, but I was also interested in the role of the private sector and that's what led me to Google.
And I still think that, you know, companies have an incredible opportunity to really drive change. And, and I actually like the discipline that working for a business puts on you, because you've got to do things in a way that makes business sense and that are scalable. And so, you know, as an example of that, we were one of the first companies to go out and start signing renewable energy purchase agreements on a large scale. And we've now had, you know, literally hundreds of companies follow that, and you know, it's almost 20GW a year of corporate power purchase agreements.
And, you know, we had conversations at time, you know, really sort of understanding that look, we want to go out and do this but we don't want to be so out in front of everybody, or pay so much more for energy, that no one can follow along and it can't be scaled beyond just Google. I mean, what good is it if only Google achieves this, this end? We're doing it to solve for the climate, and so we've got to do it in ways that can be scaled beyond us, and so...
But at the same time, like, working at a company really sort of focuses you in doing things in a way that make business sense, and are sound, and like I said can be scaled. So I think it is a, a balance you have to strike, and I do think that it varies across different companies. I think we've been lucky at Google that Larry and Sergey, our founders, were very interested in finding ways to solve for climate, our current leadership is, our employees are very engaged, and so, you know, we're committed. We're spending a lot of resources on it, but we're also doing it in a way which we hope makes sense for the business and also makes sense for others to pick up and, and emulate as well.
Jason Jacobs: Well, I ha- I did and episode with CalPERS before and, and one of the things that was interesting when I spoke with CalPERS was that, from their standpoint, it's not just about the collective good because if the timelines get out long enough then it's about the people that they represent with their pensions and livelihoods, essentially. And, and that if the climate doesn't stay stable, then at a certain point then it will be hard for the economy to function.
So, so I'm curious when you look at the business return, for example, is there a certain timeline within which you'd be making a different set of decisions if you were only acting in the self interest of the company and the financial shareholders, and then beyond that it starts to kind of bleed into the, you know, the ability of the company to, to sustain and perform longterm? Or do you feel like those types of trade-offs aren't necessary, and you can do things that are aligned for the best interest of the company and shareholders in the short term, that also push on the right path towards net zero and 24/7 carbon-free energy?
Michael Terrell: I think it's possible for us to do it. There's such a strong interest in, from our customers, from our employees, from the leadership, and from our shareholders, you know, to see us out and having a leadership role in this area.
Again, it might differ, you know, depending on the company. I think, I recognize that, you know, as a tech company that's still in a very, sort of, high growth phase of our history, it might be easier to make those decisions, you know, than it is for other companies where the pressure on the bottom line may be even greater. Uh, but again, I think there's, there's a strong interest.
And also, I think there's a lot of value in doing this work. I mean, we've gotten so much smarter about how we manage energy for this company by thinking about it more holistically. And we've, you know, found ways to empower ourselves as a company, because we got frustrated with our energy providers because they weren't providing us the product that we were asking for, you know, vis-a- green power. And so we went out and changed the laws so we could go and procure it ourselves. And we're working to that in a lot of places around the world, and that's delivering value to the company. And so, you know, I think there's, again, ways that you can orient yourself towards, you know, doing right by the climate and it delivers a lot of value in, in numerous ways that are not always quantified, you know.
I think another area of, that I'm super interested in is using our cloud platform to use of some of the capability that we've built for ourselves at Google. So, take for example, our move to 24/7 carbon-free energy. We're now, y- you know, monitoring the carbon free energy mix on every grid where we operate around the world in real time, and doing renewable energy deals to align with the gaps we need to fill with that. Well, is that something that we can make available to our cloud customers for them to use as well? We've already started surfacing that data to them, allowing them to choose which region they want to run their compute based on which regions maybe cleaner. And so, that's something that I wouldn't have even thought of even a year or two ago as we were thinking about this program.
So, again, I think if, you know, if you orient yourself in the right way, and you make smart decisions, you can drive a lot of value.
Jason Jacobs: What have been some of the biggest learnings, and/or surprises along the way in this 14 year journey that you've had so far?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I, you know, we, we had that sort of first wave of clean tech, you know, and I, when I came out to Silicon Valley from Washington, D.C. we were... That was just picking up. And, you know, I think at the time we all underestimated the difficulty of moving the needle in this space. I mean, this is, you know... Climate change is one of the greatest challenges the world has ever faced, and energy and climate solutions take massive investments to develop and scale, and we're trying to displace very mature and entrenched ind- industries. So, you know, I think there was a lot of lessons learned from those early days, you know, out here in Silicon Valley. Clean tech [inaudible 00:20:13] as we've talked about.
But I've, we've learned a lot. I'm still very optimistic. You know, I think we've now shown that we can scale critical technologies that we need to solve climate, you know, wind, solar, storage. There's a wider scope of technologies that are available that we can put to use, smart devices, software, machine learning. And the other thing that I think we've learned and that's much more interesting about the space now is there's just, there's many more stronger players. I mean, it used to just be, you know, a small set of incumbents and that was it. But there's so many companies getting in the game on energy now.
Google, we're a huge power consumer, you know, that, that's gives us an ability to hopefully drive the market in a good direction towards cleaner energy. You know, so is Amazon, so is Microsoft. You know, Tesla's now a major, you know, auto producer. And there's companies that have been built up around the software space. And, so, you know, I think we've come a long way and, you know, and also learned that, you know, you really need to be smart and understand the space to move the needle. But I do think, I do think it's a very exciting time now, and you really are starting to see the change that we were set out to do, you know, 10, 15 years ago.
Jason Jacobs: And when talked about that you weren't getting what you needed in terms of green power from the existing players, so you changed the laws, or you, you worked to help change the laws so that you could do these things in house. Do you hope and wish and are you pushing on the existing players to adapt? And is, is them continuing to provide this energy the right long term solution?
Or do you think that in any scenario it makes sense f-... Like, are you DIY because there were no other choices but you don't prefer to be, or are you DIY long term regardless of how things play out externally?
Michael Terrell: I think it's a little bit of both. One of the things about the energy space is, it's very diverse across the globe, in the, the structure of markets and the kinds of partners that you have, uh, really vary from market to market. And in some places, you know, partnering with utilities makes the most sense. In other places, where you've got the capability or the capacity, it might make sense to do deals on your own.
And so I think it's, you know, at the end of the day it, eh, we need everybody to solve this problem and, you know, everyone's going to have to evolve and change. But, I also think that we have to drive the change. You know, we can't wait for the change to happen. This is too urgent a problem that we have to solve for, and we're not going to wait. And so, you know, we certainly look first to work in partnership and to develop joint solutions with, with our energy providers and other partners, but if we're not getting the traction that we feel like we need to have in the time frame we need to have then we're going to, we're going to look at other options.
And I think that's the posture we have to take if we're all serious about solving climate change. It's going to take really transformation of how we've, you know, lived and worked. And certainly in the energy space, we've got a lot we need to change, quickly, if we're going to solve this problem and, and we need to not be shy about that.
Jason Jacobs: And when you look at the landscape, I guess I'll ask this two ways, one is more with a Google specific hat on, where the blockers or the gaps or the, the things that, you know, outside of the scope of Google's control that if solved for would most help you accelerate these efforts.
And then I'll ask you the same question, but in a non Google standpoint, looking more at the big picture of the overall clean energy transition.
Michael Terrell: So for Google, there are a couple of things. One, you know, we need to change the markets and set the markets up to really drive massive amounts of clean energy onto the grids. And so, that means things like regionalized energy markets so you can manage wind and solar on a regional scale, more competitive procurement processes which will help drive prices down.
And then we also need, you know, to continue to advance the technology. I mean, wind and, and solar and storage have had incredible gains over the past decade, but we're going to need more than that if we're going to really get the grids to carbon-free soon. And certainly in places like Asia, which has some very challenging markets because of geography. And so, you know, we're going to need to continue to advance new technologies, you know, beyond wind, solar, and storage to help us get to 24/7 carbon-free energy.
Jason Jacobs: And how do you determine which technologies to put your weight behind?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, it's a great question, Jason. And our goal is for 2030, is to get there by 2030, and so we're looking at technologies that we think we can build and scale in that time frame. So, you know, certainly wind and solar and storage. Others that we are looking at, you know, long duration storage, green hydrogen, we've, we've talking about advanced geothermal, certainly on the load management side of things, so managing power loads; those are some of the ones that come to mind.
And then a little bit further out from those are, you know, technologies like advanced nuclear, or carbon capture. But it's... 10 years in the energy space is, you know, not a lot of time, and so we're really looking for things that we can, you know, have built and scaled and serving our data centers, you know, by the end of the decade.
Jason Jacobs: And in the interim in some of these harder to de-carbonize areas, whether it's aviation, or whether it's cement or concrete, or industrial processes, how big a role do you think that things like offsets and the carbon markets should, and will play?
Michael Terrell: I really struggle with net zero commitments, and I'm speaking as someone who used to trade offsets in that business before I came to Google, and who has been at company that set a carbon neutrality target back in 2007, you know, we were one of the first companies to do that.
And I think that might have been the right answer in 2007. I'm not so sure that's the right answer for 2021. The urgency around solving this problem is so much greater, and the suite of options available is so much greater now, that I think we need to really be focused on solving the problems, [laughs] you know, changing the way we're living and we're working.
And that's certainly what we're trying to do with 24/7 carbon-free energy at Google. We're moving beyond offsets, we're not talking about net zero, we're talking about zero. And we feel that we've evolved as a company, with respect to our electricity use, and that the electricity space has evolved to a point where we can actually be having that conversation in a, in a way where we think it's possible and it's achievable, and it's something we can pull off in a reasonable amount of time.
And, you know, I do worry sometimes that there's such a focus on setting a, some sort of a net zero target that we lose sight of what we're trying to do, which is actually to drive system change. And, you know, certainly net zero may makes sense if you're an oil company, you know, but for others would it be better for companies to be focused on how to drive emission reductions that are many, many thousands of times their own carbon footprint, you know. Focus on the areas where the companies intersect the economy, or where they intersect people's lives. You know, I mean, again ultimately we need to change the way the world lives and works.
So I think that's, that's something that ought to be part of the conversation as we have, you know, this rush to make more of these net zero commitments.
Jason Jacobs: And you talked a bit before it... I mean, it sounded like you're still in this high growth mode, and that, obviously, Google's grown a lot over the last 14 years and beyond, and will likely continue to. Where do consumption patterns fit into all this? Is there an onus, either on individuals or on companies like Google, to focus on reducing their consumption patterns as well? Or should it only be focused on a greener supply?
Michael Terrell: I would say that we need to get smarter about consumption. I've always felt that the solutions here are additive, that they improve our lives, you know. An EV drives better than a car with an industrial internal combustion engine. A smart thermostat is better than what it was replacing, you know, previously. And so I think it's... A lot of the these solutions are multi-faceted and deliver multiple benefits.
And I do think it's possible for us to solve this problem in a way that, you know, is not going to be punitive and cause a great sacrifice. But again, that, the-, we have to get focused on, on that goal of really transforming the way we do things, the way we run supply chains, the way we handle retail, the way we handle operations, and if we can transform all of those things, you know, we can solve this problem in a way that's, like I said, is, is additive, not zero sum.
Jason Jacobs: Do you think it's possible to address the problem without sacrifice, in the time frames that we need to?
Michael Terrell: I think we have to be careful about leaving communities, or, or people behind. There's no question that solving climate involves a transformation of the way we all use energy and live and work, and it needs to happen quickly. And, and we need to be careful not to leave people behind. And I think we have to be cognizant of that as we're building out programs and working on solutions, and making sure we're addressing that.
And you may have to have special circumstances that are put in place over a temporary basis to do that, to sort of cover some of those gaps. But certainly, long term, it's in my mind no question better for the planet, and better for the population.
Jason Jacobs: And I mean, when you talk about a systems problem, I think one of the debates that I see out there in the client is whether we should be reforming the existing system or whether, essentially, we need to rethink what system we're in. I mean, given that Google's one of the pillars of the existing system I probably know where you come out on all that, but I'll ask you that, that question anyways. Do you worry sometimes that capitalism has run it's course?
Michael Terrell: [Laughs]. That's a broad question, and so I don't... You know, I don't know what system change you're, you're referring to. But you know, do we need to be, you know, more disruptive in driving change across society and the world, and not be afraid of that? Yes. And, and what does that exactly mean? I think we don't necessarily know the answers to that. But again, the urgency of the problem, I think, requires us to really look hard all aspects of, of society and what do we need to change in order to do that. But again, to do it in a way that lifts up everybody.
Jason Jacobs: Well what about this? So, I guess another thing that's debated is, on the one hand, if we have greener power for example, people don't necessarily know where their energy is coming from, so if we just at the systems level give them green energy, right, then that will get us where we need to go.
And there's another school of thought that says, you know, we're not going to get there unless essentially from a bottoms up standpoint society demands it at the individual level, demands it at the polls, demands it from their employers, demands it from the education system, demands it from like all the key stake holders that make our global economy work. So at the individual level, how important do you think it is that individuals care about climate, and that individuals play their part?
Is that a distraction, and a sideshow? You know, Jimmy Carter wear your sweater. Or, or is it an essential part of the solution?
Michael Terrell: I think it's both actually, Jason. I think you need a set of engaged consumers. You know, demand drives change and the stronger the demand signal, the faster the change. And so, you know, I'll give you an example from the space I work in. I, I chair the board of an organization called the Renewable Energy Buyers Alliance and it's made up of major corporate players who are trying to open up avenues for companies to go out and buy renewable energy. And it's made up of major companies, Google, GM, Disney, Johnson and Johnson, and that's creating a demand pool.
But ultimately you want this to get to a point where like people don't have to think about it, that the, the change has been effected and they can be confident that the energy they're using every day is clean and carbon free. And so its not something, if you look out into the future, that you feel like people need to think about all the time. It, w- should just be, it should just be solved.
So I think you need both, I think you need an engaged set of consumers that are driving demand and driving change. But ultimately, you, you want to get to a point where it's fixed and it's not something that, you know, has to be a part of everybody's day-to-day consciousness.
Jason Jacobs: And you, you talked before about the importance of, of policy and I think, I think the example was around Google being able to procure green energy directly. Are there key policy initiatives that, if they were in place, would make a big difference for your efforts with Google? A-, and I guess related question, are there specific policy initiatives that you're putting resource towards championing currently?
Michael Terrell: Absolutely. There are a number of policies that could make a difference, you know. I mean, first of all, obviously pricing carbon is on everybody's list and something that would be very beneficial from a climate perspective, but it's been hard to achieve. But there's so many other policies that also can drive real change and, that are a little bit more focused on the energy side, for example.
So, clean electricity standards, you know, the, the state renewable portfolio standards across the US are what really drove the initial scaling of renewable energy in this company, in this country, and is this company I should say. It really helped to open the door for companies to buy too. And so, we know, we should have really strong clean electricity standards.
I mean, we think it's possible, actually to get the grid to carbon free, you know, much sooner rather than later, you know, than 10, 15 years versus 20, to 30, to 40 years. Um, we should be structuring the, the electricity markets so that they allow more competitive procurement and allow more management of renewables over large areas. We should be putting in place programs that do R&D on new technology but also provide incentives for those technologies to be taken up and scaled.
So there's a lot that needs to happen on the policy side, and a lot that can happen. And a lot of these things are... Uh, they actually have pretty broad support, so you know, we're optimistic that we can get some of these things passed and we're certainly out there being a champion for that.
Jason Jacobs: And what are your thoughts, and/or Google's thoughts on things like direct air capture, carbon capture and storage, carbon removal in general?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I think every thing should be on the table, including that. And more power to the folks that are spending time and effort on trying to make that happen, it may very well be an area that we invest in, or, or deploy resources in. You know, I think if you look at how long carbon dioxide stays in the atmosphere, you know, 300 to 1,000 years, it's hard to image us solving this problem for the world without eventually finding a way to remove carbon from the atmosphere. So I think this is a very, very important area that should be looked at.
At the same time, it shouldn't be an excuse to continue to put carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. And, you know, I mean, it's like if we solve for direct air capture, do we really want to still run coal plants for the next 100 years, you know, and still extract oil from underground? Probably not, so you know, it's, it's one of these areas that I think is absolutely imperative that we all be looking at as a society, but we should also not lose sight of the fact that we still have to drive solutions that mitigate carbon to begin with in terms of its emission.
Jason Jacobs: I guess on a related but different note, where does natural gas fit into all this? I mean, clearly it's there as a bridge, but is it a bridge or do you think it's part of the long term equation?
Michael Terrell: I'm of the mind that we can move away from it in a lot of markets. I mean, we have a global portfolio and, you know, we're seeing now in some regions that, you know, b- given the reduction in prices in wind, solar, and storage, regionalisation of energy markets, promising advancements in newer technologies that, you know, again the future is... The ability to realize the future is, is much sooner than we think, you know, and, and so we, we maybe be able to skip that step potentially in certain grids.
And other areas, you know, if you're looking at Asia for example where you have grids that are heavily coal powered, maybe it makes sense to have that as a bridge. But in other regions, I think the clean future is right around the corner.
Jason Jacobs: Fission, fusion, does Google have an official stance or do you have, uh, personal views on the matter?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I mean, we haven't taken any technology off the table, so, you know, I think advanced nuclear technologies are certainly an area we all should be looking at. We've actually done some work on fusion, more related to using machine learning to help speed up testing for fusion technologies, but certainly an area that we should be looking at.
It's probably further down the road in terms of when it could be scaled and commercialized. It's not something that we're expecting to see in the next decade.
Jason Jacobs: And I guess semi-relatedly, the big f- fossil fuels companies, you know, more and more of them are saying some of the right words, and inserting those into their marketing materials. And they might even be, you know, doing a little bit around, you know, starting to signal or, you know, with a small percentage of their resources doing things that are, that are greener and cleaner.
Do you think that they're essential partners in the transition? Do we need to do an end around and, and have a new set of, set of players powering the, you know, the green energy of the future? How optimistic are you that they're going to come around and how essential are they to come around?
Michael Terrell: I don't know the answer to that question completely, to be honest. I think we have to wait and see. You know, I think we've seen some promising developments, even in the last few weeks. But, you know, certainly it would be great for everyone to be part of the solution to this problem. And, you know, that's an industry that doesn't have as strong a history with driving climate solutions as others do.
So I think it remains to be seen, but I also think we've seen some encouraging signs. And certainly given their scale and their reach across the economy, I ce- I certainly hope they will be.
Jason Jacobs: And I'll ask you the same question about utilities. What are the biggest things that they need to do to become more part of the solution directionally, and are you seeing those things?
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I think they have to embrace change. It's an area that for decades saw very little change. And now we're seeing much more rapid change in the energy space driven by this change in demand from customers, and also just this proliferation of new technologies. The next 20 or 30 years in energy are going to look nothing like the last 20 or 30 years, and utilities are going to have to recognize that and adapt to that and partner with others to drive change.
And also recognize that the markets need to evolve too, you know, that sometimes the vertically integrated monopoly may not be the best answer for the public good and we may need to revisit those models. And so, I'm encouraged. I think we work with a lot of utilities, but again, you know, given the urgency of this problem we, we all need to be moving faster.
Jason Jacobs: And now that you're 14 years in, what are you proudest of if you look back on your accomplishments at Goo- Google, and what are you most excited about looking forwards?
Michael Terrell: I'm certainly proud of what we've accomplished on energy. I think w- it's an area we've really tried to lead over the past, you know, 10 plus years. And hopefully help folks realize what's possible in this space and that it is possible to drive faster change, and that is possible to reach carbon free energy much sooner than we thought. And I'm super excited about that. And I think the, the next 10 years in, in this space are going to be really exciting. And we're moving towards carbon free energy, I completely believe that.
I also think that we haven't even gotten started as a company. I talked before about net zero commitments and, and finding ways to encourage companies to focus more on driving change many, many thousands of times beyond their own footprints. And if you think about a company like Google, who touches billions of consumers every day, you know, how can we use that as a tool to solve climate change for the world? And I think that's an area that we're just starting to explore. You know, we've, we feel like we've gotten a handle on our operations and on our energy footprint, although there's still plenty of work there to do. But I think that's what represents our greatest opportunity, it's one of the reasons why I'm still here, that I feel like we still haven't achieved what we can in terms of being part of the solution to this problem, and that to me is, is something that I still think we can do, and I'm excited about the future and trying to do it.
Jason Jacobs: And just speaking for a moment to any entrepreneurs, or aspiring entrepreneurs in the audience, what are the gaps that you wish that someone was working on and solving, and who if anyone might you want to hear from?
Michael Terrell: I think climate change, at the end of the day, is a technology problem and, and not a pollution problem, and it's about changing the way we life and work. And so, that involves innovation across the board, and across the spectrum in every area of our lives. And it presents and incredible opportunity for entrepreneurs to develop new solutions.
And so, my advice is to keep at it and look for gaps, and look for opportunities. And certainly for us, you know, like I mentioned, we're, we're trying to achieve 24/7 carbon free energy. It's probably the biggest moonshot we've set for ourselves on sustainability yet, and looking for tools and resources on how to do that. And then we're moving towards, you know, how can we use our products to help drive change, you know, around the world, so certainly looking for opportunities there as well.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And if you had a magic wand and could change one thing outside of the scope of Google's control, what would it be and how would you change it to most accelerate the clean energy transition.
Michael Terrell: Yeah, I think it's what I was just speaking to, Jason, around, you know, framing up this problem as, as one around technology and driving technology solutions that are, you know, additive for the world and for the population. And making sure that we're focusing public policy, focusing corporate action, focusing individual action on doing that. And I think if we all did that, we would get to the solutions much sooner.
Jason Jacobs: Michael, anything I didn't ask you that I should have? Or any parting words for listeners?
Michael Terrell: You had mentioned something before, I'd seen something in the notes, around asking what's the different between looking back at my time in politics and at the White House, and you know, what's different now in the 90s and the early 2000s, then now. And I thought that was a really interesting question, Jason, and I just had given it some thought and...
You know, it's interesting looking back on that time when I was in the White House in the 90s, the scientific evidence was there back then. I mean, the, the 90s were incredibly hot years. 1997 was the hottest year on record at the time, only to have its record broken by 1998, which was the hottest year on record at the time. And we actually hiked Al Gore and the media up to a glacier in Glacier National Park, because the, the evidence was showing back then that all the glaciers in the park were losing mass balance at an alarming rate.
So, you know, in the 90s the evidence was there to act, but unfortunately there was also just this incredible polarization, even then, you know, that we see now. I mean, the fossil and the incumbent interests were on one side, and the environmentalists were on the other. You know, just to give you an example, you know since we, we'd mentioned Al Gore, when he ran for president in 2000, he was heavily criticized by the left and by the environmental community for not being green enough. And that, that's actually one of the major reasons why Ralph Nader ran for president as a third party candidate.
And it's interesting, Ralph Nader received 97,000 votes in Florida, and George Bush officially won Florida by 537 votes. In that same election, Al Gore lost West Virginia because of his strong stances on climate and the environment, which was a state that Bill Clinton had won twice. So, you know, the politics were tricky even back then. I think what's changed now is, you know, it still can be a polarizing issue but we now, we have this massive middle. I mean, the visibility of climate change, the mainstream acceptance by the public, you know, the mainstream acceptance by the business community, I mean that's what different, and that's what's motivating action. And, you know, I think it's an exciting time.
But it was, it was interesting to think back, you know, what was different back then and, and what has changed and what hasn't. Some things have, and some things haven't.
Jason Jacobs: Well hopefully we'll look back in another 20 years and feel like a lot more has changed, and hopefully Google will continue to be playing a leadership role in, in helping take us there. So with that, Michael, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. I thought this was a great discussion and wishing luck to you and to the entire Google team on all the work that you're doing, and thank you for pushing so hard in this area.
Michael Terrell: Great, thanks for having me.
Jason Jacobs: Hey everyone, Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co. Note that is .co not .com. Someday we'll get the .com, but right now .co. You can also find me on Twitter at Jayjacobs22 where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The lawyers made me say that. Thank you.
