Episode 162: Mary Powell, Green Mountain Power
Today's guest is Mary Powell, Clean Energy Leader & Former CEO of Green Mountain Power.
Green Mountain Power is an energy transformation company providing power and innovative products and services to three-quarters of Vermont and the first utility in the world to become a B-Corp.
Mary's career started at a fast-growing market fund. She stayed for eight years, during which time the $200 million fund grew into $3.5 billion. Her first Vermont job was as the human resources director for the state's Department of Personnel. Mary served as director under three gubernatorial administrations. Famously rejecting the position three times, in 2008, Mary assumed the role of CEO at Green Mountain Power. In 2012, Mary combined two utilities (Green Mountain Power & Central Vermont Public Service). Then she introduced Vermonters to heat pumps and the Powerwall storage battery. Mary significantly reduced Vermont's carbon footprint. She created the first B-Corp utility in the country, committing to the use of business as a force for good. In 2019 she was voted the best utility executive in the United States. Mary is the Chair of The Solar Foundation and sits on the Board of Directors for the Rocky Mountain Institute, Vermont Mutual Insurance Company, Sunrun, Energir, and Hawaii Electric.
Mary is an exceptional guest and someone I've been looking forward to interviewing. Mary dives into Green Mountain Power, the work she did the transform Vermont's utility, and the role utilities play in the clean energy transition. We also discuss where government regulation fits in, the effectiveness of pricing carbon, and what we can do to accelerate just and equity clean energy adoption. This discussion is a must-listen.
Enjoy the show!
You can find me on twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@mcjcollective.com, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.
Episode recorded June 8th, 2021
In Today's episode we cover:
Overview of Green Mountain Power and Mary's role as CEO & President
Why Mary dedicated her professional career to a cleaner, greener future
The overlap between those concerned about climate change and those working in energy
Balancing impact a company can have and financial health as a CEO
The US energy market and what Mary thinks the future energy market should look like
Why customers are still so reliant on fossil fuels to heat their homes and a look at how far utilities have come
What motivates customers to sustainable switches and demand their utilities do too
A discussion about a customer-led approach to a clean energy transition and the role policy plays in a consumer-led business
How to balance state and federal climate policy to accelerate a green energy solution
How the government should decide which climate solutions to back
Battery technology and if "electrifying everything" is possible
Nimbyism (Not In My Back Yard) and its effect on climate
How utilities factor in social equity and justice when building green infrastructure
How to accelerate a just and equitable clean energy transition
The effectiveness of pricing carbon and if it's in our future
The reality of climate change on future generations and if Mary is optimistic that we can still effect positive lasting change
The importance of radical collaboration between the regulatory community and the energy community
Links to topics discussed in this episode:
-
Jason Jacobs: Hey everyone, Jason here. I am the My Climate Journey show host. Before we get going, I wanted to take a minute and tell you about the My Climate Journey, or MCJ as we call it, membership option. Membership came to be because there were a bunch of people that were listening to the show that weren't just looking for education, but they were longing for a peer group as well. So we set up a Slack community for those people, that's now mushroomed into more than 1,300 members. There is an application to become a member. It's not an exclusive thing. There's four criteria we screen for, determination to tackle the problem of climate change, ambition to work on the most impactful solution areas, optimism that we can make a dent and we're not wasting our time for trying, and a collaborative spirit. Beyond that, the more diversity the better.
There's a bunch of great things that have come out of that community. A number of founding teams that have met in there. A number of nonprofits that have been established. A bunch of hiring that's been done. A bunch of companies that have raised capital in there. A bunch of funds that have gotten limited partners or investors for their funds in there. As well as, a bunch of events and programming by members and for members, and some opensource projects that are getting actively worked on that hatched in there as well. At any rate, if you wanna learn more, you can go to myclimatejourney.co, the website, and click the become-a-member tab at the top. Enjoy the show.
Hello, everyone. This is Jason Jacobs, and welcome to My Climate Journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change, and try to figure out how people like you and I can help.
Today's guest is Mary Powell, former president and CEO of Green Mountain Power, which is an energy transformation company, providing power and innovative products and services to three-quarters of Vermont. Mary served as president and CEO for GMP from 2008 until the end of 2019. During that time, she initiated and implemented a strategic and comprehensive restructuring of the company that dramatically transformed GMP. And she's been the backbone of a cultural transformation and service quality improvement. Fast, fun, and effective is her motto, and under Mary's leadership, GMP became the first utility in the world to become a B Corp, showing a commitment to use energy as a force for good.
Now, I was excited about this, one as Mary has been on my wishlist for quite a while. And she did not disappoint. We have a great discussion in this episode about the journey at Green Mountain Power, some of Mary's history, and what initially awakened her to the climate crisis, and how that translated from something that was a source of concern to putting front and center professionally. We also talk about the role of utilities in the clean energy transition. What's going well. What's going not so well. Some of the barriers to bring about the transition, and some of the changes that could unlock progress the fastest. And finally, we talk about where Mary is professionally, and what she's been up to since she left Green Mountain Power, and what she's thinking about doing next. It was a great discussion and I hope you enjoy it.
Mary, welcome to the show.
Mary Powell: Thank you. Wonderful to be here.
Jason Jacobs: Oh, such an honor to have you. You're kind of a legend, and you're so deep in an area that's so important for de-carbonization that's still two-and-a-half years in. I feel like I know so little about, so a little intimidating for a newbie like me to, to have this discussion. But it's gosh, I mean, you were on our wishlist for quite a while, so I'm so glad that we finally convinced you to come on the show.
Mary Powell: Oh, well, I'm honored that I was on your wishlist for so long. And honestly, I feel like I try to show up wherever I can be useful. So I guess I'm sorry I didn't come on sooner [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: And by the way, I have to ask, are you, so do you, is Vermont home? Does that continue to be home?
Mary Powell: Yep. Right now Vermont is home. That is where I'm-
Jason Jacobs: Oh, oh okay. So I'm in the Boston area.
Mary Powell: ... that is where I'm dialing in from.
Jason Jacobs: So I just love Vermont. Yeah. I love Vermont. Vermont is a- amazing. I, I don't know all of Vermont, but we've gone a bunch of times as a family, and it's just so beautiful. So much open space. So green. People are so friendly.
Mary Powell: Absolutely. In fact, I grew up in New York City and I started my career down in the city. I grew up right in Manhattan, and I too would come to Vermont as a kid. And I just was so attracted to how green and beautiful, and the culture of Vermont. It's just, it's an incredible state. It really is.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. No. I love it. It, I have my way. Well, we'll see about, you know, schooling. And my, my wife is, is in school to become a nurse, actually. So she's gotta be close to the hospitals and stuff. So we'll see if I could ever convince him to spend a lot more time in Vermont. But I definitely have fallen in love with it. But at any rate, usually we start just by taking it from the top with what guests are currently up to. I know you're the former CEO of Green Mountain Power, but maybe we should start with Green Mountain Power. And just talk a bit about, about what it is and, and some of the background.
Mary Powell: Yeah. So you're right. I'm the former CEO of Green Mountain Power. There's an amazing new Mari. I like to call her the new and improved Mari. So [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: [laughs]
Mary Powell: She spells her name with an I, versus a Y. But Mari McClure is leading Green Mountain Power and doing just amazing things there since I, since I left. And I've always been known for saying culture eats strategy. And I think that really the culture that Mari and I, and a bunch of others were a part of building it, the company, is what really is the sort of built-to-last feature of that organization. And it is, it's gonna continue, I'm sure to be a real leader in the battle against climate change and, and really, in launching innovation and energy transformation for Vermonters in a way that can make life more resilient, more sustainable, and more satisfying for the customers that they serve.
So yes, I was at that company for quite a long time. I am famous for having turned down the job three times actually, when I was offered the job [laughs]. Because I thought, "Oh my gosh, like I cannot see myself working for a utility." I just thought it culturally was not the right spot for me. But eventually, of course, obviously, said yes. And then ended up being able to be part of leading a number of transformations. But I would say the, the backbone, the most important transformation that is just so important now in, I believe in the world of green energy and sustainability, and moving forward, which is really was a culture of customer obsession.
A culture of, you know, caring a lot, not just about customers and, you know, traditional things like customer service, but caring about the values of our customers. And when you serve customers in Vermont, they care deeply about the environment. And so, really, our journey, our energy transformation journey, our climate journey at the company really started on the foundation of being obsessed with Vermonters. And then obsessed with the planet, and obsessed with being part of demonstrating, you know, that we can move to a cleaner, greener, more sustainable future in a way that is also cost-effective and innovative. So that's a mouthful. That's probably enough to get us going [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: And I'm curious. This cleaner, greener future, did you always know that that's what you wanted to dedicate such a large part of your professional life to, or I guess, if you look back in a way back machine, where did that come from, when did that come about, and why?
Mary Powell: Yeah, that's a great question. No, I feel like ... I mean, yes. That came about before joining Green Mountain Power. But I would say the first, my own journey around sustainability and my own climate journey, I feel like I can remember the day so well. I just remember being in the family Buick. I don't know if we were coming back from or going to Vermont actually. And I would guess I was somewhere around six years old. And I just remember looking out, you know, at just so much activity. And I think, you know, garbage trucks are [laughs] always something that fascinated me. And I remember getting this very strong, I don't remember how I articulated it to my mother, but I remember getting this very strong feeling of like, "Oh my gosh. Like, if we just keep multiplying, like this can't, like how is our poor little Earth gonna manage [laughs], like all of this, all of this activity?"
I think that's like the first thought I remember having around that. And I remember articulating it as probably in a six-year-old way. And I, and I don't remember hearing any profound answer that linked to some big passion within me, but that is the first time I remember sort of getting this innate, internal concern about the environment. And as I said, I always loved, I've just been a kid that was obsessed with nature and with animals. That's was really my first real passion. And so, when I came to Vermont, I got very involved for, I would say traditional ways around like land conservation. I ended up chairing the Vermont Land Trust. I did a lot of work, you know, really nonprofit type of work, or supporting nonprofits around sustainability, around the environment.
And I, so it wasn't by design that I joined Green Mountain Power and thought, "Ooh, this is a great way to have an impact." I called myself the accidental executive sometimes because I actually, you know, never sought out to be in business to begin with. And then I sort of ended up doing everything I never expected to do. And it just ended up being this amazing experience, where that deep-seated passion and concern I had within me completely aligned with the opportunity I had to lead a company that was customer-obsessed and could lead on environmental values. So it really grew in the time I was there. And again, it really grew out of this really service orientation, to be of service to the Vermonters we served, and to figure out how first to transform ourselves from within the organization, the operations of the company to become more sustainable. And then it really ultimately, when I became CEO, became an opportunity to transform our entire portfolio and how we served Vermonters.
Jason Jacobs: And thi- this might not be the place you would expect that I would go next, but I can't help but think when I hear you talk about that passion for the planet and conservation, and sustainability and, you know, being in, in harmony with the resources that we rely on. I mean, I'm paraphrasing a bit, but how much overlap do you think there is between people that feel that way and people that work in energy?
Mary Powell: Oh, that's a great question. I would say there's more overlap now than there ever w-, has been in the time I've been involved. I would say when I started, there wasn't a lot of overlap. And let me be clear, when I'm talking energy, obviously I'm talking about, the point of entry I had was the utility industry. Right? And so, that was driven largely by a culture of an engineering culture and a lawyer culture. And i-, honestly, that's partly why I like turned down the job. They were really nice people, and ultimately, I did go to work there, but I was like, "Ooh, like, this is not my thing." Like, I'm not ...
I grew up like the child of an actor. I was trained as an artist, you know, even starting in high school. So I wasn't somebody that thought, you know, culturally, you know, sort of being immeshed in a very traditional, analytical, heavy analytical, light on action. I would say heavy analytical industry, light on action. And there were values espoused, and of course, individuals have values, but I would say, no, it wasn't an industry where you found a lot of people with strong environmental values. And I would say today, what's really cool is, you see a lot of interest going on in the industry enjoining it for people that do have those values. So not to say they weren't there, but it was not the overarching value driving the industry by any stretch of the imagination.
Jason Jacobs: And coming back around to more of a Green-Mountain-Power-specific question, I, I listened to an interview or discussion with Gina McCarthy in 2019. And, and in that, you talked about how when you joined or when you took over the CEO role, that that was kind of a mess. And my question is, when you're in that situation, as the CEO, you're trying to right the ship of the company in terms of balance sheet and profits, and execution, and efficiency, and things like that. But then there's this whole other concern that we've been talking about about the things that drive you, passion for the planet and conservation, and sustainability, and, and those things. When a company is a mess from a financial health standpoint, how do you balance that and impact?
Mary Powell: Yeah. So to be clear, it actually was, I joined the company, and then it became a financial mess. Like, there was a rate order that it got that put it on the verge of bankruptcy. Like, I said yes to the job. I went on a little family trip before starting the job. And while I was on that little family trip, that's when the company got handed that, that rate order. So it actually was under the previous CEO, and it really became ... You know, I love that line, don't waste a crisis.
I mean, that was in my view, even back then, was really a good thing [laughs] for the company. Because it had no idea how bloated it was and how bureaucratic it was in the context of its mission to serve Vermonters and serve customers. So that was when I started the first initial transformation, which was about a cultural transformation. And it was really about six months in, I think the, the CEO really fi- ... I took him on like a field trip to talk to some other companies where they were run different, and he totally got it. And he was wonderful to work with to allow me to really transform. So by the time I became the CEO, we were financially stable. We were a financially stable company. And so, really what I was able to do was accelerate dramatically, accelerate that culture to then branch into way more innovation.
The area that I hadn't really had a chance to work with till I became CEO, I won't call it a mess. I would just say, we hadn't really done anything around the power supply portfolio that we had to serve Vermonters, to have it really become more local, renewable generation supplying it. So we really leaned in heavily to solar. We proposed to pay customers who went solar way back in 2008. We built Vermont's largest wind farm. So we did a lot of things, big bold moves, to actually make sure that the supply we were providing Vermonters wasn't just low carbon but was some local generation and was also really cost-effective.
Jason Jacobs: [crosstalk 00:15:08].
Mary Powell: But I think, again, back to your broader question. I mean, the reality is, every challenge is a huge opportunity. I mean, when you have, you know, I actually think financial distress [laughs] for an organization can be a beautiful thing if leadership really embraces it and utilizes it as an opportunity to transform organizations to come out stronger the other side. 'Cause if you're financially distressed, it's because there's something not right there in the system that's creating that. So it becomes really an opportunity to put a laser focus on what needs to be fixed.
Jason Jacobs: One of the confusing things for me, as I've tried to get my brain around utilities in general, is that at least if you look in the U.S. market, there really is no U.S. market. There's different markets within the U.S., and each market seems to operate in such a different way with different constraints, with different opportunities, with different challenges, with different energy mixes. There's deregulated and regulated, and ... How do we get there, and do you think that's where we should live? Or should we maybe look to have more standardization looking forward?
Mary Powell: Oh, I think standardization is just impo- ... I mean, I think the amount of time we'd waste, you know, the reality is, we all have to have a sense of urgency if we're gonna deal with the transformation needed from a climate perspective. So yes, there are differences from region to region, but I would posit [laughs], they're not as much as they may seem. I mean, I think one of the things this industry is really good at, and maybe, and all industries can do this. There's so many terms and things that make it fundamentally feel more complex than it is. At the end of the day, it's actually not that complex. It's a grid system that was developed over a hundred years ago [laughs] that is about, you know, moving energy from one place to another and getting it to homes and businesses.
And now the great opportunity we have in front of us is we now have, we don't just have grandpa's grid kind of solutions for customers and for communities. We actually have the opportunity now through innovation to have distributed technologies that can not only make that grid, I don't care what region you are in the country. Those technologies can help make the grid more stable, more affordable for all over time if we really embrace distributed technologies as a part of the solution, along with some of the larger, you know, renewables that we're gonna need to meet the kinds of goals and demands that we're seeing crop up all over the country and all over the world. So I see much more of the similarities. I don't think there's that great ... Yes, there's deregulated. Yes, there's regulated. Yes, there's regional control operators. Because the grid, you know, is fundamentally pretty regional in its physical structure.
But that said, the big picture is, we've gotta figure out how to, you know, move to as many renewable resources as we can while we also embrace what I see as a consumer-led revolution to distributed technologies. I mean, I think there is no stopping the fact that Americans in greater and greater numbers are gonna wanna move to not just electrification of their homes so that their homes are more energy independent, but they're gonna wanna move to electric transportation. And really through strategic electrification, I think it is gonna drive the phenomenon we're seeing, where more and more customers that can wanna generate their own electricity too. And guess what? Now they can generate it, they can store it, and they can control it in a way that improves their lives, improves their resilience, and reduces their costs for energy in the future.
Jason Jacobs: I tweeted that you were coming on the show earlier today, and Jigar Shah actually responded. I had just asked if there were any questions or topics people wanted me to cover and, and Jigar mentioned that, that 40% of the Green Mountain Power customers are still on home-heating oil. So I guess one, I would ask, is that right? And then two, if it is right, and you are so, or they, are so [laughs] customer-centric, then why is that? Is it because the customers don't wanna switch, or because they do wanna switch, but there's barriers that are preventing them from doing so?
Mary Powell: Yeah. I don't ... You know, to tell you the truth, I don't know about the 40% number. I would bet, given Jigar's role, he would have the number right. To tell you the truth, I'm actually surprised it might not be a little bit higher than that. I would have thought it's higher than that. Vermont, like a lot of New England states, I think Massachusetts is the same, Maine, New Hampshire. You have an entire system that was built on, you know, basically oil, propane, natural gas for home heating.
So the utilities have done a lot of work over the last, you know, I would say five to six years in particular, with the efficiency utility, with the governor's office, with the regulators, on really providing a lot of information and incentives for Vermonters to move off of fossils and onto the heat pump technology.
And actually, I think they've been hitting all of their goals. So the good news is, there's movement going that way in a really strong way. The challenge they'll also to think about, and it's why I'm also so bullish as you may know on storage, we were the first utility in the country to, to partner with Tesla on their Powerwall technology. Because, you know, one of the f-, the challenges we have is, even as Vermonters move to heat pumps and they're using a portfolio here that's very, very low carbon, right?
The reality is, the heat pumps, because again, it's a cold climate, they need power the most in the winter, which is when New England tends to rely on fossil fuels the most. So you also have to be really deliberate in how you go about this transformation to ensure that again, you're not feeling better that you're sort of, you know, you've reduced carbon, but you're actually creating it somewhere else in the overall bridge system.
A higher carbon footprint. So that is why also, I am incredibly bullish about really the combination of strategic beneficial electrification, the home, the car, with, when possible, paired with solar and storage. And now I think you've also talked to Arch about the Span panel. Now we also have the capability to wrap it all into one device that really makes it easy for the customer to manage all of that strategic electrification. And it can be done in a way, in my mind what's most important is that it's done in a way that again, it's creating a cleaner, more affordable grid for all. And that's what's really key.
Jason Jacobs: And you talk about a customer-led revolution. What do you think is driving those customers to lead? Is it because they care about climate change, or something different? Does it have anything to do with climate change?
Mary Powell: It's fascinating. Some of it does it. I, you know, I actually was really surprised when I saw at a industry event, oh my gosh, probably five years ago in Washington, D.C. And a, uh, a pollster came and, and shared all this information that was, you know, very rigorous across the entire United States of America. And solar, compared to any other form of energy, polled the highest in terms of favorability and support. Like, some crazy number. Like, 90-some odd percent of Americans, you know, had a favorable view of, of solar energy. You know, for one.
And, but then when you got into the reasons, they were really different. Like, I would say the overarching, the most significant reason was a sense of why we embrace many things in our lives. Right? We want a sense of independence. And a big part of why that I believe, there's this consumer-led revolution to distributed technologies is, people want independence. People don't, uh, you know, and, and at the end of the day, e- even with the most beloved utilities, there's a certain sentiment, you know, in the American DNA of, you know, "I kinda don't wanna be dependent on anybody. I wanna generate my own. I wanna have a more resilient home when those storms come in. I wanna ..."
You know, so there really is this incredible emotional pull towards distributed technologies that can do something that even the best-of-us utilities can't do. Right? We, you know, on our own. I mean, we can, like GMP was a great example of embracing that and coming up with programs to be part of that solution for customers. But it, you know, so I think that's one of the reasons.
Then you're also seeing an uptick because of the concern about the environment. And then you're also seeing an uptick because, the reality is, the number of serious climatic events has increased dramatically. And so, look at what happened in Texas. So, you know, after what happened in Texas, you saw a huge uptick in the number of customers contacting, you know, solar, particularly solar and storage companies, like Sunrun companies that could provide, you know, a one-stop solution for customers so that they wouldn't have to worry about the next major climatic event. And they wouldn't have to trust that government and the utilities were gonna take care of them. They want to take care of themselves. You know, it's like-
Jason Jacobs: How could you-
Mary Powell: ... it's se-, it's selling a sense of security. I mean, and it is. I, you know, having ... You know, I moved to a lot of those devices myself years ago. And, and it is. It provides a sense of security for people, that they'll have ... And again, people, some people have had generators for years. Right? But the reality is, if you have solar plus storage, it can carry you a lot longer than your average-sized generator. And generators are fossil-based, and these distributed technologies provide a cleaner, more sustainable solution.
Jason Jacobs: All right. And I've heard debates about, you know, some people say it's imperative that we change consumer sentiment and win hearts and minds. And others say, "Don't even talk about climate change. Just like give them cheaper, give them better and, and yeah. Make it greener and cleaner," but that's not what's gonna get them to care. What do you think?
Mary Powell: Oh, I think it's all of the above. I mean, I, you know, I am, I'm somebody that, uh, believes in the power of love and radical collaboration, and leading from a values-based place. So, you know, I think that's important. But I also agree with the other sentiment. I mean, you know, the reality is, again back to that polling data I saw years ago, you know, there were people who supported it simply like they just wanna get off reliance of the big companies. Right?
So it's a sense of independence. So, so I think we have to just meet people wherever they're at and do this transition as fast as humanly possible [laughs]. I think that, you know, the most important thing is, you know, is that we move quickly. Which is not easy when you're talking about an entrenched industry like, or the industries that come with energy.
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And given that, in your words, it's consumer-led, what does that mean in terms of the role of policy?
Mary Powell: That's a great question. I mean, I, you know, I think that policy can be so enabling, as we all know. But it's interesting too, because sometimes I think when policy changes have happened, that, that some might have thought are not aligned with like clean energy in some ways, I think what you saw was you then you s-, you saw other leadership step up. Like, you know, business leadership stand up and move into that, that space.
So, you know, I think it's important, but I think the most important thing is that we're gonna continue to see technological advancements and innovation. And I don't think there is any stopping this move to distributed technologies. And I think it can be a much more affordable, sustainable way of operating the micro energy systems and the macro energy systems if done right.
So I think from a policy perspective, if we're talking at the state level, I think the most important thing is again, to embrace what I call radical collaboration. Like, really bring the players to the table and see how we can, how we can enable speed, which is something that's really hard in, I will tell you in the utility space. Because it's not an industry built for speed, and regulation isn't built for speed. It's actually built for quite the opposite. So I think anything that can be enabling more collaboration, moving quicker, encouraging innovation, is a really positive thing.
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. In a, in a similar vein, if you do look at the policy landscape, if we're trying to move the fastest, it seems like if there's federal policy, you can do it once and then it applies everywhere. But if you look at each different region, the sun shines different ways. The wind blows different ways. The landscape for things like hydro look different.
There's, you know, th-, or geothermal or, or whatever it is. So region by region, by region, just by necessity, there might be a different portfolio that's optimal to, to help address the, the challenges. So how do we reconcile that? And, and what counsel would you give? So whether it's Jigar or Dina, or someone else from government called you and said like, "How should we think about federal versus s- state, and regional versus national, and be a catalyst that helps versus getting in the way," what, what advice would you give them?
Mary Powell: Well, first of all, you know, when you mention people like Gina and Jigar, they're smart [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: [laughs]
Mary Powell: They've been at this a long time, so they, they really don't need my advice. So I think, you know, they know. They're experienced. They know it's a combination of both of those forces. And yes, energy really is local. To your point, you're absolutely right. It is. And states have different issues, opportunities, challenges. Regions do, and so the reality is, it's intensely local. And you're gonna need leadership at those levels, and you have it. And then I think, you know, there's other ways for government at the federal level to be very supportive and strategic in that regard.
You know, if nothing else, I mean, one of the greatest powers government has, I learned this when I was in government for three years, is the convening power. I mean, they have, there's sort of the policy and you can pass legislation, et cetera.
But, you know, you also have incredible influence in the context of, you know, the ability to convene, the ability to just make tweaks and changes that can really send important signals. And then again, you know, like we just said, we have people like Gina who, you know, she's been there, done that. She knows a lot about leading significant change at the national level in a way that can really start to, you know, influence behavior. So I'm very excited to see what comes from their leadership.
Jason Jacobs: And given the system how it sits today, where there's some deregulated in there, some regulated, and there's the different regions as we discussed, we can certainly talk region by region on what's best working within the existing system. And the more pragmatist would say, you know, "It works better to work with what we've got and push on it, and drive incremental change as aggressive as we can." Then try to take more bolder measures, like either scrapping the system or doing things like saying, "We're gonna outlaw natural gas." Or, "We're gonna outlaw fossil fuel by, by X year."
And it's like, "Well, wait. We can't, it's too aggressive. We need ..." And it's like, "Well, that'll force us to find a way." And like you said, it's a shock to the system the way that being in f-, ill financial health is the shock to the system for a company that give- ... You know, the, don't waste a good crisis. Right? Well, don't waste a good crisis. So I guess your position as formerly running a major utility, I'd be really curio-, and someone that's so climate-motivated as we've been discussing, where do you come out on that topic, and what's the right balance there?
Mary Powell: Well, I think I'm really excited. 'Cause I think we're seeing some of those shocks to the system. So I think you need ... You're right. I'm very concerned about the time we have to transform. I mean, we've gotta get moving. And again, with entrenched systems, one thing we all know is, they're not built for speed. So we've gotta figure out how to move the entrenched system as fast as we can, while we also create room for new solutions. So again, you know, uh, from my perspective, the best solution is this combination of the grid and distributed working together to drive down costs for all of society and get it cleaner, greener, and more sustainable. Right?
The reality is, if the, I'm pretty convinced if the industry system can't move fast enough to just support that, I think the consumer-led revolution is just gonna drive distributed technologies, you know, throughout the system. And we're gonna have to deal with it on that front. In terms of big bold moves, yeah. I love them. I mean, I love the fact that California has said, you know, that cars after a certain date have to be EVs if they're gonna be sold in the state. You know? I have no doubt that every bold move like that sends messages to the market.
And if you look over like the last 10-year horizon, right, what we thought was bold, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, thank goodness, it doesn't feel as bold today. So you're seeing more and more ... For me, the ones I'm not wild about are sort of the bold statements are like 2050. 'Cause I just feel like, "Eh. Like, don't say anything at all." That's too far away to be meaningful. Like, take a super, if you think, if that's where you wanna go, then take what you think is the Super Bowl benchmark between now and then that we have to hit, but don't put dates out that far.
But I love, you know, some of the ... Well, and 2030 is not even that far away. Those are the kinds of things we need to move more quickly, and you're seeing bold action, you know, whether it's the divestment movement, whether it's, you know, these clean energy statements, positions governors are taking, the position that Biden took, you know, with really making climate a priority. All of that is the kind of momentum we need right now to move forward with the kind of speed that we need.
Jason Jacobs: Should the government be picking technology winners?
Mary Powell: Well, I mean, I think, you know, there are ... I mean, by that, what do you mean? So do you mean like picking something, and then putting a bunch of money into something in a particular technology, or?
Jason Jacobs: Well, so an example is like this like the SunShot program. And I wasn't around for it, but from what I can gather from doing however many hundreds of episodes I've done is, is that, in the early days without the subsidy, solar wouldn't have crossed the chasm. And look at it now.
Mary Powell: Well, I mean, I think that's, but that's true of like every energy source we have. I mean, and that's what always gets so funny about. You know, that's ... People always wanna talk about the source of the day that has gotten support. When in fact, you know, fossils have had support. So it's yes. in that sense, I think that's just, that's what all economies do and should do, you know, to foster certain innovation or certain change that they, they hope to see. So I think the, you know, the ITCs, they, you know, whether it's for wind, for solar, I think all of those have been important in the context of accelerating innovation and, and the development of technologies, for sure.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And when it comes to making those choices, are there certain ones that you think we should put our weight behind, or how should the government go about determining where to put their weight and, and which technologies to back or to incentivize?
Mary Powell: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think the, the reality is, there's a lot of good data that gets proposed and debated. That's not honestly, where I spend a lot of my time. You know, where-
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mary Powell: ... I spend a lot of my time is, you know, I think, for example, you know, storage is doing, in fact, the challenge right now with storage is that we, we're just, we're short of supply. Right? And that's gonna change soon. But the reality is, that can be such a game changer in the context of not just making homes and businesses more sustainable and reliable, and resilient in the face of climate change, but also over time, really creating a grid system that can be those things, and that can be much more integrated with communities and distributed technology.
So the degree to which any of those technologies need the support, you know, I think that's an important function of government to do that. That's not an area, as you know, from a career perspective I've spent a lot of time in. So, I [laughs] don't wanna espouse what they should or shouldn't be looking at, or supporting or not supporting, 'cause it's, it's not where I've spent my time.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And I have a related question. And so, if it, if it also is where you've not spent your time, then, then don't, don't go here either. But, I mean, you talk about clean and green, and, and renewables, and electrify everything.
And from what I can piece together, and I'm not a PhD, I'm not deep in this stuff, uh, this is just through talking a lot to people and trying to read what I can, is that, in order for renewables, in order to get a hundred percent renewables and fully decarbonized, we either need to have a fundamental breakthrough with battery technology. Especially around long-duration batteries for things like seasonality, or we need things like nuclear to help.
So I'm just curious, do you agree with that perspective? And, and if so, what do we do with that information? And, you know, do we put lots of R and D for batteries? You know, what do we do with the existing fleet? Is advanced nuclear something we should be investing in?
Mary Powell: Yeah. So I think that's a great question. And when I launched with the team our energy vision way back in 2008, we absolutely embraced existing nuclear as a really important zero-carbon bridge to a more renewable future. So I think leveraging nuclear assets is really important. I think leveraging hydro, large-scale hydro wherever possible also is really, really important.
So yes, battery technology. What's exciting about it is, it seems to be on that, you know, really that tremendous curve of, it's gonna get, I think, more powerful, more affordable over time. So I think we're gonna see it play a bigger and bigger role in the context of the energy system. But we absolutely need to embrace the existing zero-carbon or low-carbon or extremely-low-carbon resources in the country, like safe nuclear and large-scale hydro.
And in fact, that was an area where I did spend some time from a policy perspective, because it worries me when it feels like hydro assets that could be utilized further aren't, or developed a little further aren't, or where nuclear assets that are safe, you know, might be pushed to close down sooner than they should. 'Cause I, the reality is, we need all of those assets. You know, fundamentally, I have never, I think citing large scale, whether it's renewables or traditional generation, is really hard.
So in the context of the climate challenge in the U.S. from an energy perspective, I've never gotten involved in like whether nuclear, new nuclear can play a role. Because honestly, the pragmatist in may says it's never gonna be built in time anyway [laughs]. Because it takes forever just to build anything, you know, from an infrastructure perspective. So.
Jason Jacobs: Is that unique to the U.S., though? I mean, it, 'cause it, there's some other countries that can move a lot faster. Is that because all the red tape and bureaucracy that we put in place here, and over engineered safety requirements and things like that, or is it actually technological and, and deployment hurdles?
Mary Powell: No. I think, I mean, I think fundamentally, the challenge of why some things take a long time is 'cause we're a democracy. Which I think is a good thing [laughs]. I believe in democracy. But one of the challenges, you know, particularly around energy infrastructure is, it is a very intensive process where, you know, there's a lot of interveners, things can take a really long time.
So my point is just being practical about how fast things can get built to be part of the solution. So that's why when it comes to nuclear and large-scale hydro, what I've always said is, let's make sure we're really leveraging and embracing what we have. Particularly in the nuclear fleet, that's safe to embrace for as long as we possibly can in this transition.
Jason Jacobs: And when you talk about citing and you talk about, "We're a democracy," I can't help but think of nimbyism. How much has nimbyism played a role, and what do we do about it?
Mary Powell: I mean, it plays a h-, a huge role, you know? And again, I've seen it from everything from a very small solar project to ... You know, we built Vermont's largest wind farm, which would actually probably be a state smallest wind farm in another state. Right? And you have to embrace the communities. You have to embrace people with alternate views. You know, you ... I mean, we can call it nimby, or we can just call it, like, it's just a fact of life of getting things built that are gonna impact communities and people around where you're trying to build something.
And the bigger, you know, where we've really seen a lot of it in this industry too is even in, you know, transmission projects. Where it's just really hard to, you know, it takes a long time to build projects, you know, that go any kind of distance. Which by definition with transmission is usually any transmission project.
So yeah, so I thi-, and I think what you've seen over time, and it's not just unique to the U.S., is that it's taking longer, and it's a slower process. Right? As more people have gotten involved. So. And you also see some projects where you even have environmentalists at odds with each other over projects because it might have one environmental benefit from a climate change perspective, but there's concerns about other habitat, birds, et cetera. So yeah, so things are not easy to get built and I don't see that changing over time,
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And given that, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still very much learning in this area. But one of the things that stuck out for me is just the perspective of how intertwined de-carbonization and social and environmental justice are. And when I think of nimbyism, it seems like, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, but that the communities that are best equipped to be nimby [laughs] and to fight are also the ones that are more affluent.
And so, therefore, when things do get built that are less than desirable for surrounding communities that often gets built in the communities that can least afford to, to do anything about it. So do you agree with tha-, with that statement? And if so, what do we do about it, and how do we factor that in as we go about trying to accelerate the transition?
Mary Powell: Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, I think what you're saying is it, is, whether you're talking about energy or you're talking about the highway system, or just about anything. Yeah. I mean, it, it's been written about, it's been documented that, that, that is a phenomenon that happens without a doubt. I think all of this, for me, even back from when I first joined the industry, which was quite a while ago, you know, for me, even back then, I was thinking about these topics.
And for me, that's why I've always felt like the most obvious thing from a technological advancement perspective is for things to get smaller and more distributed. I mean, I, I was fascinated, you know, way back in 1999 [laughs], we went on a trip to Tennessee to see this development that some engineers were working on that was utilizing magnetic energy that in theory could power a whole home, you know, with no byproducts.
So, because I've always been just, it's always felt to me that there is this natural evolution that means we're gonna have to move towards smaller, powerful, distributed technologies, you know? And when you think about other aspects of our lives, that's, that is what has happened in many other aspects of our lives. So to me, that's the most important thing. And why, I guess, back to your policy question, as I think about it, why I feel like it's so important that, as we're launching these loftier goals about whether it's offshore wind, whether it's large scale renewables, that we really, really make sure that we are also helping to accelerate this consumer-led revolution towards distributed technologies.
Because, as we do that, as we all know, more than more R and D and more evolution is gonna happen in the power of these distributed technology. So they will get better and better over time. So I think if, if we wanna take that really long view out, I really do see over a very long period of time, you know, that, that distributed technologies will become more and more the solution. And ultimately, you could see a day where the grid really fundamentally is more of a backup system to a much more widely distributed technological system. And the challenge is, it won't be even because in urban areas, you're always gonna need larger, bigger solutions. But a lot of the United States of America is suburban and rural.
Jason Jacobs: So then, what are the implications as you think about the utilities of today versus what they will look like tomorrow and beyond?
Mary Powell: I think that, you know, over time, you know, you've already seen over the last 20 years real consolidation in the utility space. And I can't imagine that you're not gonna see more of that in the future. You know, and you're also gonna see, I think some that really embrace change and want to work with regulators and policy leaders to have the utility of tomorrow not be the utility of yesterday. So have it be a more contemporary, innovative partner in the transition.
And then I think you're gonna have some that are gonna very much focus on big, bulk solutions for a very, very long time. And I think there's a role for both for a very long time. I just think the emphasis, the natural gravitational pull, when you see how hard it is to build and create, and get done large solutions, I think the gravitational pull is stronger towards the distributed technologies.
And they also do something back to the conversation we were having about whether it's Texas or climatic events that I had to deal with year after year in Vermont. It's also the solution that really can provide resilience, which has, back to socioeconomic value and justice, is really, really important to keep communities powered. And not have communities go days without energy, or a week without energy.
Jason Jacobs: And I'm bo-, I'm bouncing around a bit, but do you think we should put a price on carbon? And do you think we ever will put a price on carbon?
Mary Powell: [laughs] I mean, I think it's an interesting solution. I think it could be an interesting solution. Or, I don't wanna say solution because I actually don't believe there's sort of like this one silver bullet. Like, if we do that, you know, we can all rest easy. I think it's like all boats and oars in the water. It's like, we have to be deploying all the solutions we can. And I've always thought that that could be an interesting tool to use from a policy perspective.
Jason Jacobs: Well, but the second part of that is, will we ever? And the reas-, and that I, I think as a, especially timely in this discussion, because when we were talking about nuclear, you said, "Well, I would like, but the pragmatist in me, you know, I don't think it's gonna happen." And, and many would argue the same about a price on carbon. So are you more optimistic in that regard?
Mary Powell: No, I'm probably not opsi-, I'm not real optimistic in that regard. Yup.
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mary Powell: I would say I'm not.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. And I guess a relevant question to that is, at least for me, I mean, you talked about how we live in a democracy. And it, it feels hard if you're concerned about climate change to not be concerned, first and foremost, with the state of our democracy. So I don't necessarily wanna delve way deep down the political path, but I am curious just how concerned you are about the state of our democracy, and how big a barrier or threat that could be to the clean energy transition.
Mary Powell: Well, you know, I am an optimist by nature. I'm definitely a glass-is-half-full person. And I also grew up in the '60s and '70s. So in many ways, honestly, I see where we're at. Well, I mean, not .. Definitely, I've been [laughs] concerned. That said, I feel like this place we're in could be back to like, don't waste a good crisis. Like, I feel like people are really engaged in a way they have not been engaged in a long time. And, and so, I am more filled with hope than I am despair.
And I actually, I really believe also in the power of hope and the power of utilizing painful times in our history to get stronger and better. I mean, and we have, you know, we can look back and see that in many regards where we've used times that are tough to get stronger and better as a nation.
So I'm very much hoping that is the direction we're heading in. And that is, that's been my feeling. And again, part of being in a democracy is, there's different views. But the reality is, where I feel good in the context of the climate challenge is that I feel like there's more people engaged now than ever before. I mean, when I, to put a point on that, I'll never forget when I first started to wanna use the word climate change. I was told, "You probably shouldn't say that word. You'll disengage a lot of people. And people won't even take you seriously, or think you're credible." I mean, literally, that's what I was told.
Jason Jacobs: Were those people wearing dress-up clothes, though [laughs]?
Mary Powell: [laughs]
Jason Jacobs: I asked because of the changes you made to go casual, and how big of a cultural wave that, that was when you did it.
Mary Powell: They were wearing dress-up clothes [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. I had to s-, I had to slip that in because I, you probably understood, but people that maybe didn't hear your interview with Gina McCarthy like I did, might, might not have put those pieces together. So. Yeah [laughs].
Mary Powell: No, for sure. But it's, you know, so again, I feel like we're in a period that is very active. I mean, that's the good ... Right? People are really active and engaged, and, you know, listening, and pay attention and, and in many cases, yeah, arguing. And then in many cases, you know, we're dealing with a real divide. But that said, you know, I am somebody that believes again, in, how do you harness that? I mean, the reality is, there's a lot of passion out there, And I think that's better than complacency. So [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mary Powell: So I think, you know, I think we had a, we had a good long stretch where people were way too complacent. And I think now people are really paying attention, and I hope that bodes well, certainly for the climate journey.
Jason Jacobs: And in the don't-waste-a-good-crisis sentiment, and again, if this is a question that that's outside of your swim lanes, feel free to punt on it. But, you know, you hope we don't waste a good crisis and this will make us tougher and stronger, but to get tactical by doing what? Like, what would you wanna see that you think would strengthen our democracy in this moment of engagement and passion, and tension, and disagreement?
Mary Powell: Yeah. Engagement and passion. I mean, so I think that's-
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Mary Powell: ... you know, really, again, what you're seeing is, I think engagement and passion of a younger demographic. I think you're seeing, I'm seeing, you know, and maybe it's just I get, I'm fortunate that I get to spend my time around a lot of 20-somethings, but I get really encouraged honestly, by not just the passion, not just the level of education, the level of involvement that they have in the issues facing the day, but also, you know, in their own willingness to make decisions, consumer decisions around that passion, you know?
And so, again, I feel like we went through a period of time, you know, maybe a long period of time when I look at some of the '80s and the '90s where I feel like there really wasn't that much of a connection between values and behavior. And so, one of the things I'm hoping comes out of this is a stronger connection between values and behavior. And then in a democracy, that obviously leads to voting. And that obviously leads to supporting certain policy changes and things happening. So I think there is, yeah, that's, that's where my hope comes from.
Jason Jacobs: And is it about building bridges and compromise, or, or is it about fighting and winning?
Mary Powell: Well, I am somebody, I think I already used the term, you know, radical collaboration. I'm somebody who ultimately, not to say there's never a time for fighting, it's not my go-to. It's not my go-to emotion. I actually think it ultimately ends up dividing us more than moving us ahead. So I'm somebody that is really about, you know, radical collaboration and action. So again, I don't, you know, and maybe that's why I call it radical.
'Cause I've seen a lot of collaboration that is about making the people involved feel good about collaborating instead of about meaningful action coming out the other side. So one of the things I've been very heartened by frankly, is the Biden administration and Biden's approach. And I think, you know, he's a person, and in his administration, he's filling it with people that know how to do just that. They know how to bridge the divide enough to actually get meaningful action, 'cause that's what we need.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. And you've talked a lot, both in this interview and, and in another sort of her just about o- optimism. And, I mean, the way I look at it, I'm an optimist too, in the fact that rather than dwell on problem and how bad things are, and any things like that, I'm just gonna wake up every day and do the best I can to try to make the biggest dent I can. And then, you know, at least at the end, no matter how it plays out, when I'm looking back on my life, I'll know that I left it all on the field and, and did the best I could. So there's optimism. Right? But then there's math.
And I'm no expert, but from what I can gather and I have to, I feel like I have to qualify everything. Maybe that's my own imposter syndrome. But, you know, the carbon is up in the air a long, long time. Right? And so, like, if you look at just the next few decades, let's say, things are gonna keep getting worse no matter what we do based on the things we've already done. And given that, how bad do you think things are gonna get? And realistically, you know, things like carbon removal, things like solar geoengineering. Like, should I be going in like building a bunker, or ... I mean, w- what reality do you think us in the next one or two generations after us are gonna living through?
Mary Powell: Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. And I, at Green Mountain I led, you know, after the IPC report, that's what changed in terms of, we even started talking about, you know, every week, what the carbon challenge was. And making decisions, sort of to your point, of putting it all on the field. Like, really talking about, every single week, the goal was to lower our own carbon footprint. You know, because it was a feeling of like, "Oh my gosh, we don't have time. We've gotta do everything we possibly can."
So yes, I'm an optimist, but I also, yeah, of course, I worry about that. Of course, I do. You know, and really, I think much like how you described your reaction to it, you know, mine is fundamentally, let's do what we can do. Like, let's make the changes we can make. I am heartened sometimes by, you know, the fact that I, I really think human beings can bring about just amazing transformation once we set our mind to do it. And so, I'm starting to see those pieces of light and inspiration and, you know, coming from all different perspectives that are saying to me, "We could all be part of witnessing one of the most amazing transformations of humanity over the next few decades." You know, and that's what's needed.
And that would involve technological advance. It would involve some level of cultural change that would come about as part of that. But again, I'm, since we can't control the future [laughs] and we can't, all we can do is really embrace what is the next best use of our own life, energy, and time. Right? To bring about the change and be the change that we wanna see. But yeah, so I see that big looming challenge, and that's what fuels a lot of my passion, a lot of my urgency. And at the same time, I do believe in the power of people to bring about tremendous positive change when we work together to do that. And that's my hope.
Jason Jacobs: Well, what a great segue into asking you about what you've been up to since you left Green Mountain Power, and what we might expect from you in the future?
Mary Powell: Well [laughs], I think you'll ... I, I mean, really, it's always been, uh, for me really the last couple of decades, you know, just coming to appreciate that I have an intense amount of energy and passion. And when I left Green Mountain, I really used it as an opportunity to get involved in a couple of other companies. My husband and I own a company, so that's not in the climate sphere at all. It's in the, remember I told you I had a passion for the planet and dogs [laughs]?
Jason Jacobs: [laughs]
Mary Powell: So it's, it's a, it's a company that-
Jason Jacobs: That's like me.
Mary Powell: ... provides-
Jason Jacobs: I have a passion for the planet and youth hockey [laughs].
Mary Powell: Right, exactly. There you go, there you go [laughs]. I have, I've always been like obsessed with animals. So yeah, so we've done that. But also, I've had the opportunity, whether it's to work with Arch at Span to work on a retail energy startup, Rhythm, in Texas. I've been a part of advising on that. I've been, you know, I serve on the board of Sunrun. I've been involved with HEI, and also worked with David Crane, f- formerly of NRG on, you know, launching his first SPAC, special-purpose acquisition company, that, you know, is right in the midst of actually hoping to close a transaction.
So I've been very involved in the clean energy space. And in terms of what you might see from me in the future, you know, anything and everything I've explored that could really be the best use of this incredible energy and passion I have in the space of clean energy. So I've had lots of conversations about lots of different things, and I'm as excited as the next person to see what's next.
Jason Jacobs: So nothing to announce today, is what you're saying?
Mary Powell: Nothing to announce today, no [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: [laughs] But it, uh, it also doesn't sound like you're necessarily longing for the portfolio approach.
Mary Powell: It really ... Seriously, it's about where I see my energy put to the best use, for sure, around this topic. So I-
Jason Jacobs: Hmm.
Mary Powell: ... definitely felt like my energy has been used in a really positive way over the last year-and-a-half, and I've learned a lot. So that's been really helpful.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh [affirmative]. Well, count me in the eager-in-anticipation camp of waiting to see what you s- sink your teeth into next, when you're gonna put all of that energy in a condensed way into one thing. So and it, who knows? Maybe the portfolio approach will work for a long time. I mean, in a way, I kind of have a portfolio approach. But, but yeah, so I'll, I won't say one concentrated thing. I'm just excited to see how you continue to channel your energy regardless. How about that [laughs]? So if you could wave your magic wand and change one thing outside of the scope of your control that would most accelerate our transition, what would it be, and how would you change it?
Mary Powell: Oh, that would be, that's an easy one. That would be way deeper love, trust, and radical collaboration between the regulatory community and the energy community [laughs]. That's a [crosstalk 00:58:54]-
Jason Jacobs: Any ideas for how to bring that about?
Mary Powell: Well, I, you know, I-
Jason Jacobs: Like, tactically, [crosstalk 00:58:56], what can facilitate that?
Mary Powell: What-
Jason Jacobs: Yeah.
Mary Powell: Do you know what facilitates that is? Really endless courage, passion, and energy of leaders. You know, at the end of the day, when I say I have faith in people, it's because I've been part of the alchemy that happens when you, you know, get different people together with different views, different talents, different experiences, and they all get laser focused on one mission that becomes more important than their own whatever. Right? Fill in the blank.
Their own ego. Their own aspirations for themselves. Right? That's where the magic happens. And this is one of those, you know, sort of in a good way, it's, I always used to call the climate change challenge the North Star. In a negative way, it's a crisis. Right? It's a crisis, and we have to learn to move faster to meet the, you know, challenges of that crisis. So, you know, it really takes a lot of courage and leadership of the existing folks in those positions to bring about the necessary change.
Jason Jacobs: And my last question is just, the people that listen to the show tend to be a mix of people that have been, you know, like you, have been working on trying to address this problem for a long time. Or people like me that are maybe newcomers, but are super motivated to try to figure out where to anchor and, and make their marks. So either separately or if you've got a single message to all those listeners, what would you say? Like, what's your advice? What, what parting words do you want them to leave with from this discussion?
Mary Powell: I think it's different. I think if, if it's, it's folks who are listening that are involved in the energy space, I, again, I think it's really, it's time to make ourselves uncomfortable. Like, it is literally ti- ... Whether that means working more tirelessly than we have been in the past, whether that's having the courage to have tough-love conversations that need to happen, where things aren't moving fast enough, you know, this is the time. This really is the moment, you know, I really believe for courageous leadership.
So for those working in the space, I think there are amazing courageous leaders that I look up to all the time. And I think all of us need to find those that we, that we wanna emulate, and emulate them and move this, this as fast as we can. In terms of people listening, and even those people, I mean, I also think what's really important is looking at our own behavior. Looking at our own, you know, back to a consumer-led revolution that I hope accelerates distributed technologies, EVs, all of this. Heat pumps. Right? So much of it is being willing to look at ourselves and be willing to make the changes that we know, as incremental as they may be, are important in the context of aligning our behavior with our values.
Jason Jacobs: Mary, this have been such a, a wide-ranging and awesome di-, energizing discussion, I'll say. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I did? Or, or any additional parting words for our listeners?
Mary Powell: Oh no, you asked a lot. I'm all good [laughs].
Jason Jacobs: Well, I've got more so we can, we can do, we can do another whole hour if you want. No, but seriously, this was amazing. And yeah, you've got an inf- infectious energy and a ton of really deep institutional knowledge and scar tissue to go with it. So I learned so much from this discussion. I know our listeners will as well. And thank you and be- best of luck. And a- again, I can't wait to see where you end up in and, and what you'll do as well.
Mary Powell: Ah, thank you. It's been so nice chatting with you.
Jason Jacobs: Hey everyone, Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co. Note, that is .co, not .com. Someday, we'll get the .com, but right now, .co. You can also find me on Twitter at jjacobs22, where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode, or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The lawyers made me say that. Thank you.
