Episode 191: Jason Jacobs, MCJ Collective
Today's guest is Jason Jacobs, Founder & Host of My Climate Journey.
Three years ago, Jason started having conversations with folks in the climate space to better understand the crisis and how someone without a climate background could make a difference. Almost 250 episodes later, My Climate Journey has blossomed into a three-show podcast, weekly newsletter, and nearly 2,000-person member community. In late 2020, MCJ announced MCJ Collective, an early-stage climate tech fund investing in over 40 startups worldwide, tackling some of the most challenging climate problems.
This week we flipped the script and put me (Jason) in the guest seat. I was interviewed by our very own, Cody Simms, who most recently served as Senior Vice President of Climate & Sustainability at Techstars before joining the MCJ team as a Partner in late 2021. Cody and I have a lively conversation about my evolution from Runkeeper to MCJ, where my optimism comes from, and my advice to first-time entrepreneurs. We also talk about the biggest surprises thus far on my climate journey, how to scale climatetech investing, and the importance of inspiring folks to focus on climate. It was exciting to reflect on how far MCJ has come and what the future might bring for us. Special thanks to Cody for taking over the host job this week and all those who participated live.
Enjoy the show!
You can find me on twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@myclimatejourney.co, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.
Episode recorded live January 5th, 2022
In Today's episode we cover:
Jason's entrepreneurial journey and what motivated him to focus on business
The Runkeeper story, the experience of selling the company, and how the decision came about
How Jason went from Runkeeper to MCJ
MCJ's growth from a podcast to what it is today
Lessons learned from Runkeeper that are helping Jason build MCJ
Where Jason's optimism comes from and why it is so central to MCJ
The biggest surprises Jason has had on his climate journey
Beliefs Jason had at the beginning of the journey that he no longer holds on to
Jason's most unpopular opinion regarding climate change
What sets climate startups apart and if they are inherently different from any other startup
Advice for first-time climatetech entrepreneurs and folks working on pivoting into climate
How to build out and scale angel investing into sustainable startups
Inspiring v convincing when telling the climate story
The future of MCJ and the areas Jason would like to explore on the podcast in the future
Links to topics discussed in this episode:
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Jason Jacobs: Today's guest is me, Jason Jacobs, the host. We did one of these before, maybe a year ago, but a lot's changed in a year. And now we have Cody on the team as well. So it was easy to flip the mic around and have Cody ask me all the questions, which I have to say was a little uncomfortable. It's easier being on the question asking side, but this is a pretty deep discussion, probably deeper into my psyche than I planned on going. And hopefully it is helpful and informative for anyone that is trying to follow down a similar climate journey to the one that I've been on for the last three plus years. Cody, anything to say?
Cody Simms: Just MCJ has been a huge part of my life for the last few years. And it's been fun getting a chance to talk to Jason. And obviously getting a chance to know Jason over the last few years. But in particular with this episode, getting a chance to, to dive into his reasons for creating this and what he's learned along the way. So hopefully you all enjoy it.
Jason Jacobs: Hello everyone. This is Jason Jacobs and welcome to my climate journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests, to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change, and try to figure out how people like you and I can help.
Cody Simms: Hey everyone, I'm Cody Simms. For those of you. I haven't met. I joined Jason and Ty a few months ago as a partner here at MCJ. And really the very fact that this is possible that MCJ has become something that now has multiple people working full-time on it, not only as an influential podcast and member community, but also is one of the most active climate tech venture firms in the world. This really is a Testament to the movement that Jason tapped into when he started this whole thing. By now, I think most of us probably know the broad outlines of the backstory. The MCJ tale began roughly three years ago or so when Jason decided it to make his next chapter about purpose and set out to try and figure out what was happening in climate change. He felt someone with his entrepreneurial experience could help, but really didn't know how.
And so he started on a journey to speak with fascinating and accomplish people, tackling the climate crisis from lots of different directions. And for some reason, and much to all of our future, he began recording those conversations. Soon folks began to ask if there was an opportunity to collaborate, his inbox couldn't keep up with the flood of inbound. And he started a slack community where people could begin to engage with each other directly, and really this digital space, which I guess now is the M MCJ member community. It became sort of a common meeting ground for exploring ideas and really had this... still has this incredible spirit of action and optimism. And in this, in this MCJ mixing pot, if you will, people began to come together to offer fresh takes on old problems, new partnerships, relationships, connections started happening. People found jobs, working on climate. People began starting nonprofits companies.
You know, honestly, it's been pretty magical. And if you zoom out, you know, what really happened is that the walls came down. It's an overloaded word, but people began to innovate. Strangers became collaborators and maybe another overloaded word, a community. And Jason's climate journey became all of our climate journeys. And to me, this is really the big aha of MCJ that climate change requires working together like never before, because systems problems need interdisciplinary points of view. And so today in celebration of three years of MCJ, we're gonna flip the mic and we're gonna interview Jason. We're gonna learn about what got him to focus on climate change in the first place and learn about what he's learned along the way. I've got some questions myself. I've got some from Twitter and we've got a live audience here who will have the opportunity to ask questions as well. Audience members, you can use the chat function toward the back half of our, of our conversation. I'll give you some cues and we can, you know... love to hear questions you have for Jason too. And so with that, Jason, welcome to the show.
Jason Jacobs: Wow, this is so weird. And I have to say, you do intros way better than I do. I feel like you should do every one of 'em going forward. Now I, now I have this imposter syndrome after listening to your intro.
Cody Simms: [laughs] Well, you're 200 plus episodes ahead of me. So all good. Maybe I felt like I needed to, you know, overcompensate for that [laughs]. But let's... you know, I wanna start really in the way back machine. We've all heard your voice so many times, but you know, I think people wanna know who you are. So maybe give us a little bit on where did you grow up? What were you like as a kid? Were you inquisitive and curious entrepreneurial? And like, was there something that you wanted to be? What did you wanna be when you grew up? What did Jason Jacobs wanna be when he grew up?
Jason Jacobs: Well, I grew up outside of Boston, Massachusetts in the United States. I was a frenetic kid growing up. I had tons of energy. I was moving all the time. There were early signs that I viewed business as sport. I was a big athlete. Uh, I wasn't super good, but it was just a big part of my life. And I would do things like sell sponsorships for the printed youth hockey tournament program, you know, door to door with small businesses. And I kind of burned through my whole tuition getting covered. Cause you got half of... the sponsorship dollars would go to your tuition and then half would go to the program. And then I started chipping away at my, my brothers, you know, not because my family was pressuring me because we needed the money or something, but just because it felt good to, to help out. And it was kind of the sport.
I was told in like kindergarten or first grade that I was like gifted or something. And then I totally took my foot off the gas on school because I thought you're born with what you're born with, which was like the most detrimental damaging thing that ever could have happened to me. And I coasted through high school. I clouded my way into a decent college because of sports, even though I didn't deserve to be there, shanked my way through college. And then discovered business and business was like passion. And so I spent my four years of liberal arts college, like bursting at the teams, wishing I was in some big state school cause I needed more excitement when really I realized that you could, you know... that there was more excitement than just like going to parties or football games or something that you could actually channel it for production pursuits. And once I discovered that there was no turning back.
Cody Simms: That's awesome. And you know, I think based on that, obviously... I know you had some early chapters kind of in the, you know, the early parts of your career, but you, you know, maybe you can talk about those, but I know you eventually became an entrepreneur with Runkeeper. You know, you talked about how important sports were to you growing up. And I think with the Runkeeper journey, you know, we've heard flashes of that story from you, but not really the details. So maybe, maybe spend a few minutes like unpacking the run, keep your story with us.
Jason Jacobs: Well, so there's, there's been three main chapters to my career. The first was I kind of fell into startup tech, right outta college. I was a liberal arts undergrad. And so the first decade of my career was in functional roles of increasing responsibility on the people side of largely infrastructure software companies, like selling data storage software into big banks and health systems and stuff like that. And I was in recruiting and sales and business development functions, I got an MBA. And during that time I loved the sport of business and I loved the people I was working with and competition and stuff like that. But the widget really wasn't that personally relatable selling essentially digital plumbing to big banks, just wasn't something that was personally relatable as a liberal arts undergrad without a computer science background.
And I had always wanted to start a company and I thought that the widget didn't matter because I knew it was gonna be a technology company. And didn't think there was an area of technology that I could be passionate about and was very frustrated, trying to fit figured out. And like years went by to the point that I was starting to have self-doubt about whether I was really cut out to be an entrepreneur. Finally, I was like running in the red zone trying to figure it out and not knowing what was holding me back and sign up for my first marathon as a way to like clear my head 'cause I was driving myself freaking crazy. And during that training, like a couple things happened, one, I, I was using the existing tools and realized that, that there were both gaps and opportunities there. And then two realize that like I was passionate about something other than startups, which was fitness and it was like, "Oh, I could combine my two loves and build a digital fitness company." Hooray. Like that's amazing.
And I have a hypothesis for where to start, which is... feels pretty good. But like, even if I'm like, "Even if I'm wrong I wanna do something at the intersection of fitness and technology and I can pivot into something else at this intersection. And even if I fail, I'll learn so much from that journey that like it will have been, been worth it." And then fast forward 10 years, that was a, you know, a bumpy ride and a lot of lessons learned and a lot of exciting things. But ultimately it, it was kind of gory, but had a, you know, a really good outcome in the end. We were acquired by Asics, the big Japanese shoe company. And every class of investors did well and it was great for the team. And it was life changing for me and my family, but that was kind of a lot. So I don't know, I could, I could go into more detail than that, but that's at least kind of the, the high level on the, the Runkeeper journey, psychologically, if, if not, if not from a product standpoint.
Cody Simms: And you know, maybe before you had your current MCJ fame, you had your 15 minutes of fame with Runkeeper as a guy who ran the Boston marathon dressed as a smartphone. If I'm, if I'm not, [laughs] if I'm mistaken, is that right?
Jason Jacobs: Well, I mean, if you are a first time founder who's unknown, who doesn't have, you know... who didn't like go to Stanford or go through Y Combinator or something like that. And you're building a consumer startup in Boston, which didn't really happen at the time. And you're competing against Nike and Addidas and, and a bunch of other startups companies and things like that. Like you need to find a way to rise above the noise. And so we did some crazy things along, like running a marathon, dresses like a giant iPhone, and tweeting the whole time with one phone on my arm tracking it. And one phone, you know, giving updates as I go and taking pictures and things like that. And, you know, reach out to a bunch of press before it was on the front page of the globe business section the day of the race. And it kind of turned into this whole huge media firestorm.
But what was interesting is that a lot of people didn't take us seriously before that, given some of the reasons I mentioned. And after that, they still didn't know whether to take us seriously, but they said like, "That guy's freaking crazy. Like he's gonna do whatever it takes to make this work." And so in that sense, it actually did get us some credibility, but I'm finding parallels like that in, in all walks of life. Like you come in as a newcomer. And if you, you know, if you wanna rise above the noise, you can't like compete against others at they're game, you need to change the game.
Cody Simms: That's such a great lesson. And you know, I, I mean, I'm seeing it from the inside, how MCJ is obviously following suit to that regard too, which I think we can get you, but you know, let's... maybe before we-
Jason Jacobs: That's good for our strategic off-set in a few weeks too, like we're not gonna outcompete, like, you know, the big dogs at their own sport. If we, you know, wanna be big and impactful, we need to do it our way and change the game. Like direct parallel.
Cody Simms: Yeah. I love it. Actually. Let's hear a little bit more about the runkeeper journey and just, you know, when did you just side or how did it come about that it was time for a Runkeeper to, to exit, that it was time to, to sell the company. What did that feel like? What did you learn from that process, and maybe how did that influence your thinking about the next chapter of what you would do eventually?
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, well, you know, the first phase of Runkeeper, we were essentially unfundable for the reasons I mentioned and maybe that was because I didn't believe we were, but for whatever reason, like we weren't gonna get funding. And so we bootstrap, you know, we were one of the first apps in the app store. We charged for the app initially, and that wasn't like big revenue, but it was like seed financing. It was big revenue versus what I would've had to otherwise fund out of pocket from a savings that, that didn't really exist. And then we were having increasing success. We were in our elements, we weren't answering anyone. We were doing it our way. And then started thinking about raising capital, not necessarily because we had some clear, long vision and, and we were cutting into bone, not pursuing it, but because as the category was getting more crowded, we started worrying that... you know, we had a leadership position. We started worrying that that leadership position was gonna be to atrophy.
So it was almost like a signal, like to make a statement, to box people out, to discourage others from coming in, which be honest, just the wrong reason for raising money. And then in order to get that money, we had to tell a big story. And a lot of... there was a perception that running was too small as an addressable market. And so we felt like we needed to tell a story beyond running, which again, like in hindsight, that is not a good reason to go beyond running. You know, to go beyond running, you should do it because you believe that you can, you know, build something more impactful, something you're more excited about, a chance to have a bigger impact, a chance to create more value, a natural product extension. You can see, you can taste, you can feel, like it, it wasn't those things. It was like, "Hey, we need to tell a big story."
So we started out telling a broader fitness story, but by the time we pulled together the deck to go raise the money, it was a health story, like a, you know, aggregating the world's health information. Like that had nothing to do with building a running app in community. And we got the money and soon after we got that money and because we... you know, we got the money because we had so much wind at our back and running. And as soon as we got the money, we had kind of an awaken and realized that in the process of getting that money over 6, 8, 10 months, whatever it was, we had taken our eye off the ball on the core product running. And our position was starting to atrophy. Like, so it was almost like self-fulfilling like, we were worried about atrophy.
So we started thinking bigger. And so therefore it atrophy versus if we were just laser focused in running, maybe it would've been a smaller adjustable market, but we could have like fricking dominated that market. Right. And those were the two choices, right? We were just talking the about that today, about a different company that we were evaluating for investment about like, either you want a big Tam or you want a small Tam and a way to, you know, 10 X, your share of that Tam. And, and what we ended up doing was, was essentially hedging and telling the bigger health story, but still focusing on running, because if we didn't... if we lost our wedges, then we'd be nowhere kind of thing. Right. And so we had a board that was constantly trying to pull us to the broader health vision they signed up for, which makes sense. And... 'cause that's what we pitched.
And you had a, a team that, you know, that really wanted to focus on making their running app and community great. And so we lived to that tension and that was the first time entrepreneur. I didn't rip the bandaid and have the hard discussion and get everybody calibrated. We kind of lived in that mode for a few years, which was like essentially like quick sand and got to a company... a pretty unhealthy place where we were still growing, but growth had slowed a bit and it wasn't lighting the world on fire. And we had been profitable before the round, but we deprioritized revenue. So it was like the worst case because we had a little revenue in flat, which would've been... you know, which was worse than having no revenue, 'cause then you could and solve a promise of what could be.
And we didn't have a clear story for how we were gonna dominate and running because we were trying to get beyond running. And we didn't have a clear story for how we were gonna dominate and brought our health. And didn't feel like we had permission to pursue that path because we were shanking and running. So we did an inside round of financing. We cut a third of the team, hired a real number two for the first time, which I desperately needed because in hindsight, like I'm not the best operational CEO. I'm more like visionary madman, storytelling, right, inspiration. But like you need someone to like, you know, org charts, process, budgets, KPIs, right? It's like, it's just not what I'm good at, you know? And that really changed the trajectory of the company. We got focused, we got healthy, we got profitable. You know, we got back to our running roots, which felt really great.
But it wasn't sexy. It was like, you know, we're building like a running profitable running, you know, which is not like a big, fancy unicorn venture. Right. And right when we got in that mode, we had been allergic to talking to the big running players before were that because we were trying to... we... you know, running was like, we were a child star, like running was where we started. But we were like, you know, Gary Coleman from different strokes. Like, you know, I'm not Arnold like I'm Gary Coleman. Right. And [laughs] no one's gonna get that. Who was an old like us Cody. But once we had permission to like own who we were, then everything felt right. And we got our narrative back, we got our mojo. And like a year later we were acquired by a running company to be the digital, essentially like, like the consumer IT across their whole company. Right. Which was amazing.
But by the time that happened, like I was freaking cooked because it had been such a long ride of like prolonged war time. And if that acquisition hadn't happened, although we had a viable ongoing path, I don't think I had gas left in the tank to stick with it personally. And it did happen. And not only did it happen, but it happened in a way like, you know, the investors had probably written us off. I would've, if I was them, you know, but we ended up landing a plane and like making them all money. Right. And then having a great outcome for the team. Not only financially, but also in terms of strategic fit. Like we can go, can triple our head count. We can do all the things we're doing. We can invest in them and we can take on all these new responsibilities. We can be part of an international company. We can have travel experiences. We can like get this whole new skillset and perspective. Right. It was, it was awesome.
And then for me it was life changing personally, just financially as the largest shareholder. And honestly, after I had time to rest and recover, that just messed with me. "cause I just... and I wasn't proud. I wasn't celebratory. I felt survivor guilt. I was like, "I'm not worthy. I don't deserve this. This company should have been running to the ground. And I got lucky." That's how I felt.
Cody Simms: Wow. Well clearly you did a lot of things to not be lucky. You, you obviously managed to, to build an impactful brand. That's still around today that you know, many, many, many runner is around the world. Still use. Even if you know, you personally, aren't, aren't involved in it anymore.
Jason Jacobs: With the passage of time I've gotten prouder about it. But when it first happened, I almost felt shame, which is not rational. But just given, I mean... and also there's not a lot of people, you can talk about that with when that happens, because it's like, "Oh, you, you know, you poor rich person. Like you're having psychological problems now that you sold your company." Right. It's like, "Get the out..." You know? Like, like those... you know, people have real problems in the world, like shut your mouth. Right. And on the one hand, they're right. I am exceedingly fortunate, but like those problems are real problems and no one wants to hear about 'em and then where do you turn? Right. It's uh, it's kind of lonely to be honest.
Cody Simms: Well, I, you know, thanks for sharing that. That's definitely more detail than I think any of us have heard about Runkeeper, but more than I've, I've heard about it. So I wanna understand then, you know, with that sort of psychological background that you were going through at the time, how did you go from, you know, fitness app to climate change? Like what did that path look like for you? And, and how did that become the next chapter for Jason?
Jason Jacobs: My wife is downstairs working out. Now, if she comes up here, she's gonna like Chuck all if... if she ever heard any of these things we we're talking about. 'Cause she like lived it, like really lived it with me. But the first days after Runkeeper was just like trying to get off the grid. And so like [inaudible 00:18:34] would drive me crazy because like I felt bad not taking them, but at the same time I was trying to get off the grid, you know, and I'm a people pleaser. So I don't wanna like, not please people, but like I'm trying to step away from all this and everyone-
Cody Simms: And actually... I mean, one thing maybe even, even before we go there, like you had this, this like big job at this huge fitness company, where you were like flying around the world and going to Japan and all this stuff, like you had a pretty cushy kid. Right? Right?
Jason Jacobs: I was crazy. Yeah. I mean, I was making more than I'd ever made in my life. And I was seeing the world and I was learning new things. And, but at the same time, it takes a certain level of bureaucracy to hold a big company together. And so it isn't necessarily irrational or unhealthy to have those layers and process to keep a big publicly traded company together. But one thing that became very clear to me very early on in that journey was although the acquisition... like the promise of the fit of that acquisition, I saw clearly before the acquisition, the strategic fit to both sides. And then saw it being realized after the acquisition. It was very important to me that that manifest and play out. But it was also very clear to me that it probably wasn't gonna be a long term home for me, even though it was a terrific place just because I'm... I don't belong in a large bureaucrat organization and they all are right.
So at that point it became setting things up for long term success and setting things up in phases for a world that, you know, like piece by piece, moving responsibilities from my plate, essentially. So that by the time I left, the integration was done, succession was done and I basically went to them and said, "Look, you know, you may put the founder on a pedestal or the spirit of the company or things like that, but I have to be honest with you, the place is running great and I'm not doing anything. And not only that, the longer I stick around, you're not gonna be able to high performing culture for as long as I'm here because it, it, all... the tone gets set from the top. And like I'm not setting a good example because I don't have anything to do because I've delegated. And the worst thing you can do is muck anything up when I'm gone, because you know, because it's running well, so don't change anything except you probably don't want me around. And it probably doesn't make sense for me to stay."
And I said, I'd stay as long as they wanted me to. And I did. I stayed actually for quite a while after that to see through succession. But it just, obviously wasn't a long term fit and I was intellectually honest about that and transparent and direct about that. And, and those relationships are intact. So yeah, so I left, I'm very grateful for that experience. It was great to see, you know, things continue to grow and expand in terms of the Runkeeper team's role within that global organization. And now I'm not..., you know, it's on a path and I left and took some time off. And got turbo about de-stressing like, as my wife would say, it's like, it's like, you know, I holistic medicine and, and meditation and like, oh, it's like a Silicon valley episode or something.
But I, you know, I had all these weird ails pop up and I... in hindsight it might be that they popped up because I just had too much time to dwell on 'em kind of thing. 'Cause I have some weird elements now, but they don't stress me out nearly as much 'cause I'm too busy, you know. Then over the past time as I started getting my energy back, it was like, you know, it was the survivor guilt was like wanna work on something purposeful. I'd always been so anxious about climate change, these like big systemic things that are existential and outside of the... you know, outside of our control, like those are the things that really get me the most or outside of our controls individuals, I should say.
And so I looked at two or three areas and one of them was climate. And what I saw was it was really sciencey. I didn't know much about it. It was kind of depressing and it wasn't obvious where my skills would fit. And it wasn't obvious that it would be a source of energy for me over the long term. And therefore, no matter how much the world needed focus in this area, like, you know, how much impact was I really gonna have if it just was a square peg in a round hole. So I tried to start another consumer company, you know, when I just had no slides and just a market that felt interesting to experiment in, like some investors just showed up because that's what life looks like for multiple time entrepreneurs, which doesn't... not deservedly just because that's what it does. And there was some investors I'd known a long time that I always wanted to work with.
And I said, "Hey, this isn't a business yet. It's just a market. It's nothing, it's an expedition." And they said, "We get it. Like, you know, it's not a company yet. You know, if you get six months down the path and you don't find anything you like, just give the money back. Like we just want the chance to work with you." So took a little bit of money, got the same founding team from Runkeeper back together. I was looking at this market and I can tell you about it, but it's kind of irrelevant for this story, but it was a, a market that was, you know, fun and interesting and emerging, but it wasn't purposeful. And I, I justified at the time by... it was like we were gonna build like a tech enabled content portfolio. And I said, we were gonna build really purposeful shows.
But we... as we started looking at categories with three VCs on the cap table, I felt, you know, even though they weren't pressuring me, I felt pressure to like focus on the things that felt lucrative and the things that felt lucrative were like the most VAD unpurposeful things that you could ever imagine. I just couldn't green light them, like something was holding me back. And it was like, man, I said, I was gonna work on something purposeful, I'm in the financial position where I can work on anything I want. And I choose this most rapid thing. Like, what am I doing? So in late 2018, I still had almost all the money in the bank. I was like four or five months down the path. And I went back to the investors. And first I talked to my team and I went back to the investors and I returned the capital. We had almost all of it. And all those relationships are intact. All those individual partners from those firms are LPs in our fund.
But it wasn't... it was a very obviously the right thing to do, but it wasn't a fun or easy thing to do. And I, I came back into climate because literally during that three or six month period, that was when the one and a half degree IPCC report came out. That was when Trump was taking steps, withdrawals from Paris. That was when symptoms were becoming more visible and obvious, you know, scientific community was foaming at the mouth. No one was listening. And finally, I was like, this climate thing's really weighing on. And what I said to myself was, "Okay, this time in climate..." Cause this is like I had a fall start already in climate. I said, "I'm not gonna write a blog post announcing myself. I'm not gonna... even to myself, I'm not gonna put the pressure on it to say, I'm committed to doing something in climate and I'm not gonna focus on what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna like talk to some smart people in climate and learn. And I'm like, see how it feels just to learn more about the problem."
So I started doing that and that felt really energizing and interesting and fulfilling. And then, then I started talking to more people and those, those people said, "Keep me posted on your progress. I can't wait to see where you land." So then I started sending monthly email update to the people I was talking to, and then in that update, I would talk about areas I learned in the last month. I covered key takeaways and what I wanted to tackle next, what open questions I had. And then I get more introductions growing distribution list. Then people from my old tech life... I was essentially like six to 12 months ahead of lots of other people from Silicon valley picking their heads up and wanted to work in climate. That's not... 'cause I'm visionary. Maybe because I had the time on my hands to be more bothered by it because was, I didn't have a day job at the time.
And then as more people picked their heads up, there weren't many people from Silicon valley who were in the process of transplanting in, I was a little ahead. So they would come to me and they'd say, "What should I do?" And I'd say, "I'm still trying to figure out what I should do, but I wish you could learn from all the people I'm learning from." So I started recording those discussions and that's the roots of the podcast kicking out a couple episode a week and it went from there.
Cody Simms: How did you go about... like at what point did you realize, "Hey, this should become a podcast"? What were the elements of going from, "I'm just gonna learn and take meetings and, you know, engage with people to... I think this is something other people want to hear as well."
Jason Jacobs: Well, one thing was that I knew just intuitively just from things I was learning were... like, they were filling me up with knowledge and energy and optimism and it was addictive. So that was just one thing as I kind of looked within myself and said, like... I just knew in totally that these were too valuable to just be going in my ears and not going out into anything that other people could benefit from. And then another thing was more and more people were picking their heads up and coming to me, asking me what they should do or where they should start. So there was an obvious disconnect between all the great knowledge I was getting and all the great knowledge that these people were seeking. Right. And then a third thing was that, you know, just talking to people all day without building anything feels pretty academic and unfulfilling.
And oh, the other thing was that the company I tried in between had this like on-air component, it was like live interactive TV. It was like live TV, meets, native mobile applications kind of thing. And when we were looking at shows, we were talking to LA types and looking at who could host like kind of think Scott Rogowski, but for categories beyond prize based entertainment. Right. And I kind of had host envy. Like I wanted to be the host. I wanted to try that and build that skillset. I had never done that before. Right. And so I kind of had the itch and it was like, podcasting is like a thing and I wanna learn more about it, feels emergence in itself. And it would gimme something to build and it's like, I'm not an engineer. And therefore I can do podcasting without writing any code. Like that's another benefit is that I don't need to like pay some dip, shop a hundred grand to like get a first product that no one's gonna use. You know, I can just start recording.
So me and the start is just kind of aligned. And, and then the other thing was that one of the people who was reading the newsletter was this guy locally in Boston at the time named Evan, Evan mulah. And he was just like, "I'm really inspired by what you're doing. Like I wanna help." And I was like, "Well, I don't know what you like. This isn't even a business man. Like I don't, I don't know what you should do." And he just started doing stuff. I don't know why, you know, you should ask him. But that was right as... I starting to think about this podcast and he essentially just like stepped in and started making that happen and I didn't pay him. I mean, he just... we didn't have a business. We didn't have, you know... like I wasn't getting paid. Like it, it was just a project. Like I don't even know what you could call it.
And then between the two of us, we just started kicking out two, two shows a week. And then it just kind of went from there. As I started recording and kicking out two episodes a week, I was meeting all these awesome guests and then the audience was growing and then my inbox started filling up and it was like, that was addictive because the people showing up on my inbox were binging on the show. They were very grateful it existed. It wasn't a big audience, but the audience that was there was so engaged and they were such interesting people. That was another thing that was really interesting signal. They were like strategic, well placed, like high octane people that came from really diverse backgrounds as well. It wasn't just tech. I mean, it was like philanthropy world. It was investing, it was government.
And then these people were longing for a peer group across the diverse set of topics that I was covering and that peer group didn't exist and they didn't know each other. So we set up a Slack community. Right. So it's like everything at least thus far has been unscripted and organic. Although as you know, Cody, I mean, given the fact that, you know, you're here on the squad and we're growing the team, we're, we're starting to, you know, embrace planning and longer term thinking and budgeting and things like that because that's what you need to do if you wanna, you know, build something big and, and enduring, but it didn't start out that way.
Cody Simms: Yeah. And at what point did you feel like it could be bigger than a podcast? Like was there a moment in time or was it just an evolution for you?
Jason Jacobs: Like at every point it's hard to explain it. It, it actually felt very similar to Runkeeper early days where, whether it was true or not, we just kind of knew the karma was on our side. Like we... it was just... we felt in our element, we felt self assured. You know, we would get kicked in the teeth time and time again and get right back up and just keep marching and just like so stoic about it. Right. And, um, two labs wasn't like that, like the company in between, like it felt more forced. And, and why should it feel forced? It's a fertile market. It's an area where like, half of it, I know super well. And the... and the other half of it, I'm really excited to learn. I'm working with two people, I've known forever who I would go to war with. Like, why does it feel forced?
Well, it feels forced because the purpose is lacking. Right. And, and, you know, the purpose was so strong here that I just felt self-assured every step of the way, but even with so much ambiguity, and even now there's still a ton of ambiguity, but like, there's less ambiguity over time, but it's, it's like judo, it's like piece by piece, just meticulously kind of nudging everything towards the middle versus some light switch moment.
Cody Simms: Awesome. Well, yeah, what I'd love to do now, I've got some questions that came in through Twitter that, you know, would love to hear from the community. And then, you know, we've got some questions starting to come into the chat here from the live audience as well. You know, the first question that I wanna ask that came in through Twitter is actually on the heels of what you just mentioned, which is, you said it started to feel kinda like the early days of Runkeeper, where it was just sort of organic and also purposeful John J Tough on Twitter. Who's John Tough from energized VC. He asked, what are some lessons you learned at Runkeeper that are now helping you better build MCJ?
Jason Jacobs: Well, one lesson, I mean, I talked about that, that big funding and misalignment that it caused through no fault of the investors. I mean, they were great people and great funds. And... but just making sure, you know, not just that, you know, if you see these big, big mouths out there, it's like, you know, "Look at us now, like we could raise a fund or we could, you know... we could do a lot of things, right." But not just what can we do? And what would people think is impressive if we did, but like, what should we do? What do we wanna do? Understanding that if we wanna build a generational firm, then we need to live with our choices over a long period of time. Right? And I think at Runkeeper, you know, I aspired to build a generational firm and felt very in my element early on and lost that along the way, because I felt like I needed to... it's like, "Whoa, now that we grow up, you know, we need to be less human and act more corporate."
And, "Now that we grow up, like, you know, the CEO should act this way and the CEO should not like mingle with the people." And, you know, it's a, like, that's all BS, you know, you need to do what feels right for you and surround yourself with people who, who aspire to build the things that you do in the ways that you aspire to. And you want diversity of opinions and thought and people to keep you honest and call your BS and stuff like that. But like, you shouldn't play someone else's game. So, so that's one. Another big lesson is just a, we distributed equity, for example, at Runkeeper, I think it aligned probably pretty well to like what the spreadsheets say that, you know, or at least they did at the time say that you should do. It's like, you know, entry level gets this and midlevel gets that.
And... but like, I'm much more interested in like growing the pie than I am my piece of the pie. And so what I'm trying to do is really instill that, you know, ownership mindset across the team as we grow, but not just a mindset, but make sure that's reflected in incentives all the way through. You know, we didn't do a terrible job at Runkeeper, but I think we were, you know, we were just, stingier there than I would be next time around. And then what else? I mean, another one is just, you know, if you're towing a boulder up a mountain and it feels forced and you're doing it because of duty because you don't wanna let others down, it's not a recipe for success.
And, you know, I think there was probably a discussion that we had at Runkeeper much earlier on than we had it about how, "Look we're kind of head with one foot in this and one foot in that. And if we hedge, we're gonna be successful nowhere. And you know, it seems like you guys wanna take it in this direction. I understand because like, that's the direction that we brought you in, that we pitched with when you came in, but the company really needs to go in that direction and that might not be the right answer, but it's the right answer as long as I'm CEO. And if, if you want to go in this other direction, then I could totally understand that because it could be a viable direction, but I'm just not the right person to take it there." Right.
And just, you know, having the kind of honesty and self-awareness and confidence to have those hard discussions and just rip the bandaid. Right. I think that's something that I, I don't wanna live in that misaligned world for any prolonged period. Again.
Cody Simms: That's great. So I've got a series of questions that came in that were really kind of about your belief system and particularly as it relates to climate and sort of, sort of, what have you learned, what do you believe? So I'm gonna ask a few of them, answer in whatever order you want. So @Brian's MOAC on Twitter, asked who or what inspires your optimistic mindset, which is so central to MCJ? We have @stay-NJ. Who's Sarah official on Twitter who asks, what are the biggest surprises on your climate journey so far? We have @Lieutenantbeard, which is Jeff Beagle who asks, what are climate change beliefs that you had at the beginning of your journey that you no longer hold and why? And Daniel S Pointer, Daniel Pointer asks, what are your most unpopular opinions with respect to climate? So take any of those... how you want. And I can, I can re-ask 'em to you again, but-
Jason Jacobs: Well, if you ask him one at a time, I'll just take each one of them.
Cody Simms: Yeah. Let's do it. So who or what inspires your optimistic mindset, which is so central to MCJ?
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. I mean, you, you know, that's not a climate mindset, that's just a life mindset. Cause if you think about it, is it too late? Like everyone wants to know like, is it too late? Right? Like, let's say it was too late. What are the alternatives to getting up and doing our best to like... think about the people that get the terminal medical diagnosis and they fight through and they keep an optimistic mindset and they explore alternatives treatments, and they explore emergent treatments and, and they pray and they do whatever it is they do. And then miraculously they're yet better. Right. Or like the athlete that gets in a car accident, they're told that they'll, they'll never walk again. Right. And then they not only end up walking again, but they end up back on the field to follow all the experts who said it wasn't possible. And yet they did it. Right.
So when people say it's not possible, one, even if it's not possible, you should still believe it's possible and do your best and get up every day to try. And two, like a lot of times they don't know what the F they're talking about. Right. So that's just a life philosophy that whether they're right or they're wrong, I'm gonna get up every day and fight like hell to prove them wrong. Right. Cause that's just better than the alternative. You... and you'll live a more fulfilling life anyways. Right. So that's one, one piece of it. And another piece of it is, I guess it's related that when I wasn't focused on it, I was dwelling on the headlines, cause the headlines are all about the science and how screwed we are and how it's gonna get worse for decades to come. And like our children, you know, our children will be the first generation that has a life worse than ours.
And it's like depressing, depressing, depressing, depressing. And like, if you just dwell on it, like look at retired people. I see it in my own life. They just read the headlines and dwell and they make themselves depressed and go into tailspins, right. Like one, I don't have time to do that because I'm too busy doing action and that's actually healthy. And two, like my action is actually pointed at things that could potentially help. Maybe they never help, but at least I'm trying. Right. And ever since I've been focused on pointing in the right direction and doing my best to try, not only am I busier, which is a good thing, but I'm busier doing my best to and leaving it all in the field. And like I'm way less anxious and way more optimistic just by the fact that I'm leaving it all in the field and doing my best.
So like, I don't know, everyone's wired different. Maybe that doesn't work for other people, but from, I mean, speaking from personal experience, it was the best decision I ever made. Cause if I was focused on anything but climate, like I would be waking up anxious about it every day. And now that I'm focused on it, it's like I'm busy to be anxious because I'm trying to, you know... I'm too busy, like hauling water outta the Titanic, you know? I mean, I don't have time to dwell on the fact that the ship is sinking.
Cody Simms: Awesome. Well, yeah. And, and I guess to that point, the next two questions are, are really related, which is, you know, what are the biggest surprises on your climate journey so far and what are beliefs you had at the beginning that you no longer hold and why?
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. So I I'd say I'm in... I don't know why I think about things in kind of waves or phases, but I would call it the third phase where... or, or maybe I'm, we're about to enter the fourth phase, which we can talk about. And, and it also it's shifting from I to we, right. Because you know, the team is growing and, and things like that. But, but the first phase was like, "Are we screwed?" I mean, that was like my first line of questioning. I was like, anyone that was working in this area, I was like, "How anxious are you every day? Like, are you an optimist? Do you think we're gonna figure this out?" Like if you hear some of my early episodes, a lot of those kinds of questions, right. And then like the next phase was, "Oh, it isn't too late." But a lot of what people talk about is noise. You know, it's greenwash or it's like incremental stuff. That's not gonna matter.
And, but like, it was almost like the VE coastal is, but like, "The big, bold bets are what we need. You know, we need nuclear and we need long duration storage and we need a priced on carbon." And the... like there's certain levers that matter and everything else is, is noise. Right. That was kind of the next phase. And you can see that in the episodes too. Like I did a nuclear tour and I did spend plenty of time on a carbon tax. Right. And then the third will phase, which is probably the one I'm kind of just emerging from now or, you know, that I've been in. Right. Which is thinking of it much more like an interconnected rain forest, where big things, small things, everything in between, everything is getting nudged towards the middle, which is also a lot more similar to how I build companies too, where it isn't some like light bulb moment. It's like a clear north star and being so wed to the north star.
And then the tactics are gonna evolve and change over time. The, how the approach, the resourcing, like that'll evolve over time. But their being led to the north star. Right. Well, that's kind of how I feel. It's like, look, we're looked at... that's our goal and look at like what... how we're deploying capital and stuff too. It's, it's like policy stuff. Yes. We need more policy stuff, federal local, everything in between like, you know, international relations. We... oh, better messaging. Of course we need better messaging, more inspirational, clear, more compelling, more credible, more transparent, more trusted, like, you know, yes. Louder, bigger reach, right. You know, more entertaining. Like we need all those things, you know, more activism. Yes. Like we need like the general public to state their case.
We need employees to state their case. We need voters to state their case. We need people to show up at the polls. Like we need all those things. Like, you know, early stage innovation, yes, we need more early stage innovation. We need software innovation. We need hardware, innovation, we need robotics. We need AI, we need ag stuff. We need transportation stuff. We need, you know, carbon accounting and, you know, helping enterprises clean up their act. And we need longer term forecasting for resiliency planning and insurance. And like, but we also need breakthrough technology, you know, should we be investing infusion? Of course we should. But it doesn't work on a 10 year time scale.
Well, well like, so what? Like, we're just gonna hit some wall and like, you have to assume that the short term stuff we're gonna keep moving on, but like the people that are in resources that focus on the longer term stuff and breakthrough stuff are a different set of people and resources and expertise and focus on this short term stuff anyways. So it's not either/or it's both, let's do both. Right. And so that's kind of the mode I'm in now, which is like interconnected rainforest and everything feeds each other. And the more success we have in one area, the more it feeds the others and, and kind of softens the tissue to get progress in those others too. The next wave though is more about MCJ's role and what we can do to level up our, our impact and how we can facilitate bigger impact across, you know, the community and stakeholders that we interact with and serve.
Cody Simms: That's awesome. And it reminds me of the classic saying, which is that, you know, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. And the, the second best time to plant one is today. Right. Which is, you know-
Jason Jacobs: Totally. People say it's too late for long term thinking and resourcing like... But it's too late. It's like, no, we need to do all the fire drill urgency. Like let you know, like get the light folks out stuff now. And we need to do the long term planning. You know, like it's, it's, these are not choices. Like, I, I don't know. I've been... I'm no expert who has worked in the front lines in these areas. And I have no credibility to even say that. And how egotistical of me to think I can come in from Silicon valley and think for myself, well, like, I dunno, that's what I believe, my belief is subject to change. I have an open mind, like I'm happy to talk and debate and think it through, and I'll keep reading and listening to different perspectives. But at this point in time snapshot, that's what I believe.
Cody Simms: That's great. And I think you answered that fourth question on the belief scale, which is about what are your most unpopular opinions [laughs], so.
Jason Jacobs: I have one more unpopular opinion though, too. I mean, can we talk about unpopular opinions a little more?
Cody Simms: Yeah. Let's do it.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. So the other unpopular opinion is that like, there's this kind of purism of like, we need this thing and these other things, you know, like a good example is like, "should we plug methane leaks in natural gas pipelines?" And the purists would say, "no, we shouldn't plug methane leaks in natural gas pipelines because that's gonna extend the life of natural gas pipelines. We should just be figuring out how to rip them down and get rid of all natural gas. We need to kill natural gas." But the pragmatist is like, "well, like, ideally that's where we get to, but realistically it's gonna be around for quite some time. And it's certainly playing an important role, at least as a bridge." You know, whether it's longer term, maybe that's more debatable, but like as a bridge, it's pretty hard to debate and it's emitting a lot of methane.
So do we just ignore it? Like, no, we should plug it or offset is another example. Like, offsets are crap. Like they're not consistent and they're not high quality and the incentives are wrong. And, and it's like, all that stuff can be true. Oh. And if you do it, it's permission to just keep on business as usual. And it's like, "Look, we should put pressure to clean up our acts and do the hard work to decarbonize. And in the meantime, it is better to have high quality, transparent, consistent offsets than not. So we... as we're doing that, we should keep offsets and we should clean them up and fix them and make them more consistent and make them more transparent and make them higher quality. Like, it's both like it's not either, or.
And the same is true. Like Bitcoin, you know, crypto, that's another example like crypto, like you see the emissions footprint and it's crazy. And it's like, :Well, yes, like it emits a lot. But realistically, like all those hundreds of thousands or millions of people and increasingly all these institutions, like crypto's not going away, whether you want it to or not. And therefore we can like power it clean or we can power it dirty. Like, you know, what are our choices here?" So anyway, that's probably an unpopular belief in some circles as well.
Cody Simms: That's great. By the way, just doesn't aside. I don't know if anyone's ever told you this, but I think you have the most iconic or relatable like personality voices that you do since John Stewart, you know, John Stewart always has his little like, "Oh, this person [inaudible 00:44:12]." like voices. And like, I admire that about you, Jason. And it's a good attribute [laughs]".
Jason Jacobs: You know, one of the things about a podcast is you forget that thousands of people are actually gonna listen to it. It just feels like me and you chatting Cody. And we chat about a lot of things, So [laughs].
Cody Simms: Let's talk, you know, you said chapter four, the next chapter-
Jason Jacobs: You created this like artificial safe space Cody, where I'm connected into speaking my mind.
Cody Simms: You mentioned that the next chapter was really about how do we scale MCJ's impact and, you know, obviously a big part of that is working with and supporting innovation and startups that are trying to come at the next wave of, of solutions for climate. A couple questions that we got from Twitter. One from Brett Jegins, @BJs who says... who asks, "Are climate startups somehow inherently different from others?" And a related question is, do we need more climate tech startups, or just more startups that naturally incorporate, you know, SDGs and positive environmental goals into anything?
Jason Jacobs: Both. Both. Both. Yeah. Like, we just need more, like, even if we don't need it, like we want it. It's, it's kind of like, "I've been eating pretty well. Like, should I eat better?" It's like, "Well, it's better than you eat pretty well than shitty, but it's better than you eat better." So, like, for example, for people that are like, "Well, I just can't really leave my job. I've been in this job and I have my pension and I'm well regarded and there's opportunity tracks for my family. And I need to pay for college and all these things, but I care so much about climate." It's like, there's things you can do with the, in your organization to champion in. You know, folks like bill wild and climate voice are a good example of that, where he's working with employees to put pressure from the inside to get big companies, not just to clean up their own acts, but to use their market might to push on policy in Washington. Right? Like that's awesome.
And that there's a lot of things like that, but at the same time, like people that wanna leave the nest and go all in on climate should do that too. And that should be encouraged and we should build bridges for them and show them how to do it. And give them a peer group of people that are also trying to do it and make sure that the capital is there. And make sure that the guidance is there and make sure that the infrastructure's there. And there's accelerator programs and like more is better. So I wouldn't worry so much about it. If you find a way that you can make an imp- like, it's kind of like, "Why would I build another restaurant? Like there's so many restaurants out there, like, how's mine gonna be different?" It's like, "Well, if you always dreamed of owning a restaurant, it's, what's gonna make you happy and fulfilled, does it matter?" You can go and build a successful restaurant if you want it badly enough. Right.
And I think people get a little too hung up on like, you know, focusing on the areas that are most neglected on a spreadsheet kind versus just figuring out, you know, factoring in what gives them energy and what they're uniquely equipped to do, because that matters too, because you have to enjoy your days and feel like you're good at it. Or you're not gonna stick with it for a long time. And all this stuff takes a long time.
Cody Simms: Matt Zothner @Zetohere asks, "Do you have advice for first time entrepreneurs in the climate space? So for folks who do wanna jump in and actually start something, what have you seen work?
Jason Jacobs: Well, I mean, I can tell you what didn't work, which is the first time I looked in climate. The reason I had a false start is because I tried to go from zero knowledge to building a venture back climate startup, you know. And I just didn't feel equipped because like a startup is a startup as a startup, but if you really wanna have an impact on climate, it's such a systems problem. And there's so much that is not intuitive about it, that it really does just take time to come up to speed and to figure out like, where are we and where do we need to get to? And what are the biggest levers for change? And so what really put me in a position to ultimately find a spot was to unshackle myself from needing to figure out what I do. But the thing is, most people aren't in a position to do that.
Like I made it my full-time job with no job to learn. And most people can't do that because they need a job. Hello. And I went for some period of time with no job. Right. And like I was in a fortunate position where I could do that. I think it's interesting to think about how to accelerate that learning journey. And that's one of the reasons MCJ came about with the podcast, was to share that knowledge and, and build a bridge for those that came after me. But there's a lot more that goes into that onboarding infrastructure than just a podcast. And, and that's the kind of stuff that we're thinking about as you know, Cody with MCJ, but there's also room for a lot of others.
And of course, you know, on deck is doing interesting stuff. Tara's doing interesting stuff. I mean, there, there's all... you know, Activate is doing interesting stuff, Elementals doing interesting stuff, Prime coalitions doing... like there's so many, and I'm not... I shouldn't have named names because I'm missing a ton of awesome organizations now that are also doing awesome stuff, but there's also plenty of room. So if you wanted to do something across companies, if you wanted to do something within a company, if you wanted to start a company, if you wanted to be a service provider to companies. Like look at Brendan in the MCJ community, who's a recruiter for climate. Like he didn't have any background at climate. He had a background as a recruiter and he just decided to apply to climate. And now he only does climate work. Right.
So you could do that as an accountant. You could that as a healthcare benefits provider, you could just focus on climate companies, if you wanted to. I mean, you could take a percentage of your profits and give it to climate philanthropy, even if you're not a climate company. Like it's okay to think outside of the box. You don't... like people that ask, "What's the biggest charity I should support or something?" Like, you know, I can tell you my favorite climate nonprofits, but it's gonna be so personal that I think people need to figure it out for themselves and it's okay to, to do something different than what anyone else would've done.
Cody Simms: Yeah. And I think you answered, you know, maybe one of the questions that Jim Anderson just asked in our chat here with the live audience, which is, you know, you personally have found a great way to pivot your life toward climate. Do you have recommendations for others who are, are trying to make the same leap?
Jason Jacobs: I mean, you guess if you're like a product manager, you can go get a product manager role at a climate company, or if you're an analyst, you can, you know, focus on the climate or some, I mean, you can... there are some... increasingly there are some kind of boxes that you can fit into, but it's still pretty early to be honest and it's nascent. And it means that it's gonna take a little more experimentation and trial and it'll be less efficient, but the disadvantage to it being less efficient is that it's more work and takes more time. The advantage to it being less efficient is that if you get in before, before there's clear definition, you can help define it. And that's gonna be unnerving and uncomfortable for, for some people. And they're gonna wanna wait until it's more mature. And then there's other people that if it's more mature, it's too late. They wanna get in early and help define, and you have to know yourself.
Cody Simms: Awesome. The last question I wanna ask on, on sort of the startup realm is, is more on the investment ecosystem. So axle, I don't know if I'm saying this right. Axle Brachgt, B-R-A-C-H-G-T on Twitter asks, if can we further scale angel investing into sustainability focused startups? So thinking things like AngelList or Wefunder where it's super easy for the investor, including small ticket investors and friendly for the entrepreneur. And I know you've been thinking about this a lot. So any thoughts you have, however, off the cuff they may be?
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, well, I mean, we're living and breathing this as you know, Cody, because, you know, we have a pool of capital that, you know, compared to the big funds it's small and compared to an angel investor, it's like getting pretty big, right. But also with the structure we have, it's more inclusive than a traditional fund and less inclusive than we wanna be. And then for us to scale, you know, we're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place because in order to scale into more institutional grade, we probably need a different structure. But then we'll get less inclusive and order to be more inclusive, we need a different structure than what we have today. And that does involve maybe delving into a territory that we understand less about. And that might be more nascent like a, you know, the, a crowdfunding or Wefunder, or some of the crypto stuff that's happening.
And I think ideally for us, we do both. We tap into more of that institutional capital with one structure, and then we find a way to be even more inclusive than we are today with another structure, because today it's like, we're too JV to be institutional and we're too institutional to be. Right. And, and that just feels shitty
Cody Simms: One of the things that... obviously the origin of MCJ is this podcast and sort of being a media presence in the climate world. I personally am of the belief that media and storytelling are probably the least focused on areas in climate that are incredibly important. You know, it's the whole changing hearts and minds sort of thing. And I'm interested. We have a question from Shinu Matthew who asks, "What are the attributes of the best storytellers you've met either via the pod or founders you've invested in through the fund of all the people you've spoken to?" So what stands out in terms of people being able to convey a climate story?
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. So one element is that you wanna try to inspire versus convince. And to inspire you aren't selling, you are educating and informing, and you're not just conveying facts, but you're conveying the why, why it matters, what could be possible, how we could get there. And you also it's... I use this analogy a lot as, you know, Cody, but I think back very often to the battle scene from eight mile with Eminem, where he starts out by laying out all of the things that could be used against him and just put them right out there, not for the other guy to find because the other guy will have nothing left to find because they're all already out there. Right. And then the other guy has nothing to say, right. And so I'm a big fan of that. It's almost like the anticel. And we even do that when we talk to LPs, it's like, "Here's all of our flaws, but like, here are the things that are compelling."
And then, "Here are the things that could even get more compelling over time. And here's the reason why you might wanna do do it. But ultimately you need to decide for yourself, I'm not gonna convince you, like, it's a fitter, it's not, but this is what we are."And we're not gonna like, you know, we're not gonna shrink from it or try to pretend that we're not right. And that's a big difference from maybe when I was a first time entrepreneur versus now is just being brutally honest, but doing so in a way that inspires. Right. And so that's... you know, there's tons of different styles. So that's not the only style that that does well, but I, I appreciate that style where, you know, where it's almost like, "I'm not gonna tell you why you should be excited. I'm just telling you why I'm so excited. And you might not agree with me. And if you don't, that's totally fine, but I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm trying to find the people that are as excited about as I am.
Cody Simms: Awesome. And you know, on the, the notion of media, Daniel Pointer asks big corporate media somewhat can get influenced by dollars as we've seen in, you know, the challenges they've had telling large stories in the past or missing things like the buildup to the financial crisis, or, you know, in, in 2008. Or missing things like what in the world was going on with Iran back in the early 2000s before it happened. And you know, or as we're seeing right now play out with fairness. Yeah. And so, you know, what mechanisms do you think as more money enters climate and more money equals influence and influence will come in all sorts of directions?
You know, what machanisms do you think can help keep the, the community honest and help make sure that we, we end up with some of these startups that, you know, today are small, but you know, a few years from now are gonna be multi-billion dollar businesses that keep them focused on being truthful. And avoiding greenwashing or avoiding the challenges that are gonna come with expect of money, which, you know, you were alluding to, even with your, you know, small company of Runkeeper, right? You faced external challenges because of the money you took on the perceptions that you, you needed to manage toward.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. I mean, I, I don't have a, a crisp answer to this, but I can just bring up some, some nuggets of ideas and some food for thought. So if you take us, for example, on our fund, you know, we have two filters we use when we make investments. It's like the blog post test. You know, when we write the blog post about the investment, like, for the LPs that are here, because they wanna make money, like, you know, can this make a lot of money if it works? And if it can't, we probably shouldn't do it, right. But that's not enough because if you do that, you're gonna invest in a bunch of stuff that just has climate buzzwords, but doesn't have a real impact, right. And then, on the flip side, for the LPs and maybe each LP has both of these things, right, because that... honestly, that's the best fit of an LP is one that has both of these pillars that kind of yin and yang and harmony, right.
But the other one is they seriously wanna have an impact on climate. And from that, when you write the memo, like, if it works, can it have a serious impact on climate? And if it's about one of those things then not the other, we shouldn't do it, right. It's gotta have both. And that's just kind of a personal litmus test that we use. We also self-select LPs that way of who our investors are. And if that approach doesn't resonate, you're not a good fit for LP. If you... if you're not comfortable with us doing something that might not be the quickest path to a buck, but really is important for the climate. And if it works can work, but there's more risk, and it'll take longer, and require more capital, like, we want the right to do that fucking deal, you know? And if you're not comfortable with that, don't invest in our fund. Like, go find the Adtech fund or the FinTech fund, or, you know, the crypto fund or whatever, you know?
So part of it is alignment. It's back to that alignment question, right? Another one is, you know, you do want systemic tax and balances. So for example, you want data, and you want tools, and you want trust, and you want disclosure, and you want transparency, and you want systems, and you want regulation, but you also... just, like, before you have any of those things, which horses do you back and how much they care about this stuff, and how much do you trust them and how resident is that in how they've acted to this point, how intentional they are about their decisions, and who they're surrounding themselves with, right? So in absence of those other things I mentioned, you start there, right. But then you work to get those other things in place as well as a check and balance.
Cody Simms: Yeah, that's great. Well, it's certainly, I think, gonna be potentially one of the stories of this decade, which is how does media evolve itself to tell a climate story? I think the startup world is often the canary in the coal mine of where culture is going and seeing the amount of entrepreneurs pour into climate today. You know, to me, shows how much mainstream attention will likely be focused on this over the next decade. At least it should, right? [laughs] hopefully.
Jason Jacobs: But that, you know, people are like, "Is this just a bubble?" And it- it's like, Well, you know what, if you believe that the problem is as serious as the scientists overwhelmingly believe, and as you're seeing with your own eyes as the decade pass, right, then it's probably not magically going away. And therefore, if there's short term cycles or waves or things, maybe that affects, like, returns on a fund or performance of a company. But, like, those are things you can't control. What you can control is what you get up every day and try to work to make your mark with in the world and help with. And in a place that feels worthy, at least to me, you leave that stuff to chance, and you don't worry about it versus trying to chase dollars.
Cody Simms: Awesome. Well, I think I've got just a couple more questions, and I think we'll probably wrap up. So these last couple are, are really personal questions. One from Stu Powell @Eco Stew 2050, who says, "Jason, if everything; the fund, the pod, the community, the... you've built with MCJ, if everything went away tomorrow, what problem or technology would, would you pursue?" What would you work on?
Jason Jacobs: I would probably go through another phase of, like, holistic medicine and meditation and acupuncture. [laughs] Maybe I'd pick up some hobbies. I'd build, like, skateboards by hand [laughs]. But after that, you mean? [laughs] That's a hard one because some of it has to do with where I think I can have the biggest impact, but some of it also has to do with, you know, life stage. 'Cause, like, for example, I have young kids. And my kids aren't young enough anymore where they don't notice, for example, if I travel or miss school events or miss sports events or, or things like that. And, and I think those are real considerations too. But if you ask me... so it would either be finding one problem area with an exceptional team, with longtime horizons that are mission-driven and really determined to take a big swing on an important problem over a long period of time.
Or it would be something that helps a thousand flowers bloom. And, and honestly, I mean, I'm doing right what I wanna be doing now, and at least for as far as the eye can see, can't imagine doing anything else. Not because there aren't other things that could be exciting, but because this checks every one of my boxes and there's no reason why I would have my head up right now. I'm working with people I trust and respect. You know, I think I have an opportunity to build a generational firm. It is having an impact, and I see a path to it having a much greater impact over time, if we're successful. And I think we can also make some money along the way as well, or at least enough to support my family. And that's all I need.
Cody Simms: And maybe the, the best... or most important question of the day, which is asked by @Gustof. Gustof Offsummer, who asks, "When and how did you get into ice hockey?"
Jason Jacobs: Just lock and for circumstance where, when I was a little kid, probably two or three years old, the house that I went to for daycare, the woman who took care of me, her husband worked for the Bruins. I grew up in Boston, the Boston area. And he... they had teenage kids, and they were always playing hockey in the street. And I... and I would play with them when I, I would have like a little stick and they got me a little stick that was autographed by the Bruins players at that time. I wish I still had it, but I don't. And my parents weren't athletic at all growing up. But when they sent a fly around and I think it was kindergarten or first grade for learn to play hockey, I brought it home and told my parents I wanted to play. So I thought I was crazy, but they allowed it. And it became a huge part of my family's life.
But it was such a huge part that I tried to run away from it with my kids and didn't want my kids to play. And then my son, you know, started later than me, at age seven, and just dipped a toe in the water, and then took to it right away. And then, you know, he just went way down the rabbit hole. And then I kind of... I was like a relapsed addict or something. I went way down the rabbit hole. And after it being non-existent in my life for over the last several decades, it's become a huge part of my life again, only through the shoes of my son, which has been crazy.
And it's also crazy being so active in my family and kids' lives while I am so invested in this company, because historically, like, with Runkeeper, it was like 110% work and, like, zero anything else, you know. And we're building this a, a very different way. And I know, I mean, a lot of us on the team are in a similar life stage and, and that- that's kind of weird because it doesn't feel like we're compromising ambition or impact or upside, yet we're doing it in a way that I wouldn't call it balance because I'm, like, on all the time, but in a way that's where like that, you know, the personal investment of time is more distributed. Like, that's a new thing for me.
Cody Simms: Awesome. All right. Two final questions for you. One is, how should listeners on the pod learn more? You know, we have a lot of people listen to the pod and maybe this is their exposure to MCJ, right? This was the, the first vehicle that MCJ had out there in the world. And for many people, this is... this is how, how they tune in. How should listeners to the pod learn more about everything else going on at MCJ?
Jason Jacobs: Well, we have a crappy website today that's currently undergoing a big redesign, that we're so excited to get that redesign out to the world. But if you wanna see the crappy website, the before picture, you can go to myclimatejourney.co. co, not com. And there's links on there to the pod. There's a link on there to MCJ collective, which is our fund, and there's... And I think there's a become a member link, which is the slack community. I will say that directionally, we have the pod, and we have the newsletter, which is on SubT stack. I think it's my climatejourney.substack.com, but we aim to have more educational means over time through content. And then, we have the community which is today synonymous with Slack. But directionally, Slack will be one of the tools in the community, but we really want the member value proposition to be broader than just Slack access.
And we're so fortunate to have Yin Lu, who is an operating residence right now. She's here for at least a few months on a part-time capacity. We hope that grows into more of a, you know, an ongoing role as part of the team Yin, if you're listening, a little plug up on the spot-
Cody Simms: Come on Yin.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. [laughs] No, but she's really spearheading, not just, you know, doing an audit of slack and the onboarding process, but also just the member value proposition and how to expand that over time. And then we have the fund. You know, today it's a couple of rolling funds. It's a core fund. That's more of like an index-like vehicle, doing small checks in a lot of climate tech companies. And then an opportunity fund that's writing bigger, more concentrated checks in typically, but not exclusively select follow-ons from the core fund portfolio. You do need to be accredited to be an LP in that fund. We wish it wasn't that way. That's an SCC. Hopefully, at some point, we can find a more inclusive approach than that. And then direction we'll see, I mean, there might be other pools of capital over time as well. We don't know.
Cody Simms: And then finally, the, the last question, which is, which is what's next? What areas do you wanna explore next on the podcast? So if people are listening and, you know, I know... I know a lot of your guests come from referrals from other guests and other listeners. So what are topics you wanna dive into both on the pod, but also more broadly, what's next for MCJ generally?
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. So on the pod, I mean, I wish there was a formula, but it's kind of, like, you know it when you see it. But I think a couple things that, that I look for and, and of course different people on the team, you know, or the community, we get ideas from all places, but one thing is just people that are innovating and setting an example and doing so with some success so that they can... their stories can both educate and inspire others to follow. So that's kind of one thing. So for example, on Twitter, I invited the Ford CEO to come on yesterday because... and he hasn't replied yet, and maybe he never will, but Ford is setting the example for other auto manufacturers. Like, they are stepping out and leading hard into EVs and they have a model that people are, like, celebrating to get their hands on, whether they care about climate or not. Like, that is fucking awesome, right?
So, like, more stories like that, you know, transition stories of, like, you know, people that transitioned in effectively and have found their lane. Like the way you're asking me about all the MCJ stories, it's like, "What are the other MCJs out there? People that have kind of came in and didn't know, but found their footing, and then how can that help inspire and educate others who are trying to follow the same path?"
And then the last one is thorny topics where there's a lot of different opinions flying around a debate, where we try to put them front and center and just short them publicly. So crypto and climate, offsets, net-zero commitments, you know, carbon tax, right, nuclear, like, what are the topics where, where you have people pounding the table saying things that contradict each other left and right. And they're all smart, you know, well-read, researched, respectable people, right. And yet they directly contradict each other. So what's the truth? Well, I don't know, but I'm gonna go in with an open mind and ask a lot of questions and bring on people with different perspectives and try to learn. And hopefully, rather than trying to advocate for any one position on the show, we can just help each listener have a more informed perspective when they... when their own worldview continues to evolve.
Cody Simms: And what's next for MCJ, broadly?
Jason Jacobs: I mean, if you look at where we sit, we've kind of got these, you know, these few personas, right. We've got, you know, we've got, like, the, you know, people who are trying to transition to figure out how to work in climate. We've got the entrepreneurs who are... who are investors, who are either, you know, actively building and investing in companies in climate or who are fired to get more active building and investing companies in climate. And then we've got the, you know, the veterans who have been kind of toiling away, you know, either in the trenches, because they're, you know, a PhD at some academic program, or they're working at some government agency or luminaries, you know, like the jiggers of the world, you know, not to pat Jigga on the back too much, or the Ford CEO or people that just, like, you know, or, you know, the John Carries or Vicki Ho from [Oxinental patrol 01:07:14].
You know, it's like, people that are really out there who've got something to say. And so we think about all those different stakeholders, and we have, like, the guests from the show, we have the members, we have the 250 something LPs, and then we have the 45 companies worth of portfolio founders and employees that we've backed in. That's a lot of people, right. And so how do we better educate those people? How do we better connect those people? How do we better undo nots? How do we better, you know, increase empathy, increase awareness, foster more collaboration? Maybe build bridges across areas where bridges haven't been built that much historically. And we think there's a role for media to do that. We think there's a role for, you know, membership and community to do that. We think there's a role for capital to do that. There's probably other, you know, kind of functional roles or lines of business, if you will, you know that we could do that with over time.
Maybe we have a... you know, maybe we have an event sign a business one day. Maybe we have a policy arm one day. Maybe we have a, you know, a recruiting arm someday. We don't really know, but back to the whole unscripted piece, we're really scripted about the problem we're trying to solve. And even about the tenets of, like, what makes a fit for us to pursue, but in terms of, like, which things we pursue and how fast we pursue them and what order we pursue them, that's gonna continue to evolve over time.
Cody Simms: Jason, well, I think that wraps us up. And I just wanna say, thank you, you know. Thanks for turning the mic over to me today, but more importantly, thanks for, for three years of building a voice out in this space and inspiring countless people to pull their head up and find their tribe and find each other and figure out how to collaborate, and really to believe that there are possibilities out there for all of us to participate and, and do what we can. So thanks for, for all that you've done. And, you know, I'm hopeful and feel like we're just at the beginning of all this, but it's been a, a really important beginning to have gotten started.
Jason Jacobs: Well, thanks, Cody. I, I wanna say thanks to you for, you know, being one of our earliest believers and tribe members and, you know, you've grown into, you know, first and informal and now a formal collaborator and also a friend, and that's really special. And I'm really grateful to that. I also just wanna say thank you, you know, not only to the rest of the team, but to, you know, the community, the listeners, the LPs. I mean, it feels pretty weird honestly, to have a voice on a platform given that I still dunno what the fuck I'm talking about. And I, I think one reason for that is that I am honest about that, and open about that along the way. And I hope that shows people that, like, you don't need to wait till you have all the answers to get out there and have something to say. Like sharing the journey isn't just like in your self perceptive. You know, it's like, yeah, it's in my self perceptive, like, you know, I have this platform and audience and community and fund, and, like, that wouldn't have happened if I didn't put myself out there, sure.
But also, it's actually helped a lot of people. And that's not because I'm like so smart or something. It's because people realize that, like, makes it more accessible, that, like, you can start without having all the answers, and you can help without having all the answers, right. And I mean, I have imposter syndrome every day, but I hope, like, if I can do it, I promise you that you can do it too. So if those kind of doubts are holding you back, then just put one foot in front of the other, take small steps. And those small steps will lead to bigger steps. Just do something.
Cody Simms: Awesome. Well, congrats on three years of MCJ and much more to come.
Jason Jacobs: Okay. Thanks so much, Cody. Hey everyone, Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on my climate journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co. Note that is dot CO, not dot com. Someday we'll get the .com, but right now .co. You can also find me on Twitter @JJacobs22, where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The lawyers made me say that. Thank you.
