Inside America’s Biggest Energy and Science Lab with Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Dr. Susan Hubbard is Deputy Director for Science and Technology at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the largest of the U.S. Department of Energy’s multi-program science and energy labs. With more than 7,000 scientists and engineers, Oak Ridge is advancing innovation across nuclear energy, grid resilience, AI, quantum computing, isotopes, and advanced manufacturing. In this episode, Susan shares how the national labs’ mission has evolved since the Manhattan Project, how companies and startups engage with Oak Ridge through user facilities and partnerships, and what role the labs will play in shaping the future of energy and technology amid today’s geopolitical and industrial shifts.
Episode recorded Aug 18, 2025 (Published Sept 2, 2025)
In this episode, we cover:
[03:03] Dr. Hubbard’s early career and hydrogeophysics
[05:31] Permafrost thaw in the Arctic
[07:11] Earth system complexity
[09:00] Transition from geophysicist to ORNL leadership
[12:17] ORNL’s user facilities, including Frontier supercomputer
[13:56] Isotopes for medicine, security, and Mars exploration
[15:45] Neutron scattering and world-leading materials research
[17:25] Large-scale 3D additive manufacturing for energy
[19:25] How DOE priorities shape research directions
[22:04] Public-private partnerships in nuclear and fusion
[26:54] ORNL’s role in ITER and advanced fusion materials
[30:51] Local enthusiasm for nuclear in Tennessee
[31:54] Building the future grid: reliability, cybersecurity, AI
[33:17] High-performance computing simulations of energy systems
[37:23] Quantum computing, AI, and labs of the future
[43:41] How startups engage with ORNL (CRADA, Innovation Crossroads)
[48:02] U.S. R&D evolution: Manhattan Project to today
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[Cody Simms] (0:00 - 2:37)
Today on Inevitable, our guest is Dr. Susan Hubbard, Deputy Director for Science and Technology at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, and our topic is the role of the national labs in shaping the future of energy, technology, and innovation in America. Oak Ridge was born during the Manhattan Project, and today it's the largest of the DOE's multi-program science and energy labs, with more than 7,000 scientists, engineers, and staff working on everything from nuclear energy and grid resilience to AI, quantum computing, isotopes, and advanced manufacturing. Susan began her career as a geophysicist, pioneering the field of hydrogeophysics, and now oversees research that touches nearly every part of America's energy future.
In our conversation, I wanted to hear how ORNL is pushing the frontier, from fusion and next-generation computing, to the ways that the private sector actually engages with the labs, something that has always felt a bit opaque, even though I know of many startups collaborating at Oak Ridge. I was also curious about the bigger picture, how the mission of the national labs has evolved since the 1940s, and how they navigate shifting political priorities. That's especially relevant now, under the Trump administration, where energy abundance has taken priority over clean energy innovation, and climate change has largely fallen away as a federal focus.
And looking ahead, I wanted Susan's take on the role the labs will play alongside the deep-pocketed R&D arms of big tech. And finally, a reflection. Just as the labs' role evolved during the physical arms race of the Cold War, I wonder how it may evolve again as we enter the current geopolitical era seemingly centered on a new arms race, all around AI.
From MCJ, I'm Cody Simms, and this is Inevitable. Climate change is inevitable. It's already here.
But so are the solutions shaping our future. Join us every week to learn from experts and entrepreneurs about the transition of energy and industry. Dr. Hubbard, welcome to the show.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (2:38 - 2:39)
Thank you, Cody. Great to be here.
[Cody Simms] (2:40 - 2:55)
Well, I want to start out with going like down the sort of super wonky background that you came into your career with, which I didn't know anything about until I started prepping for this interview. Geohydraulics? Is that the world you come from?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (2:55 - 2:57)
Geohydraulics, yes.
[Cody Simms] (2:58 - 3:03)
So, what is this field? You basically pioneered this field, as far as I could understand.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (3:03 - 4:46)
I helped contribute to growing a field, yes. I am an earth scientist, started out as an earth scientist. I've worked for the U.S. Geological Survey. I worked in oil and gas as geophysics. My degrees were geology, geophysics. But honestly, when I was working in oil and gas, recognized at that time there was a lot going on in the environmental world.
And folks were talking about how to water resources and environmental remediation using new bioremediation techniques and so forth. And I recognized that a lot of the work that had been done, or a lot of the approaches of using geophysics to understand the deeper subsurface for understanding resources in the earth could potentially be used in the shallow subsurface to understand how fluids flow and contaminants could potentially be treated and so forth. So, I went back to do my PhD at Berkeley, UC Berkeley, which was where one of the only people in the world who were sort of doing work starting along that line.And I had the real pleasure to develop a background in fluid mechanics and data fusion strategies that allowed me to contribute to this field that we do now know as hydrogeophysics. And basically, that is, you know, how do we combine different types of data, hydrology, geophysics, geochemistry, biology, to understand, as I said, how fluids move, how nutrients move through this system. And also, how do we think about using that information to manage that system, whether it's for water resources, for agriculture, for contaminant remediation, for understanding biodiversity and ecosystem health.
So, it's been a lot of fun.
[Cody Simms] (4:46 - 4:58)
I would imagine, you know, as you look into kind of next generations of energy and areas that people are exploring, this field would seem highly relevant for things like enhanced geothermal. Is that correct?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (4:58 - 5:19)
Absolutely! I mean, geophysics has been long used in the deeper subsurface where the rocks are more consolidated and typically saturated with a certain type of fluid. It's absolutely used in the deeper subsurface.
But the idea is about fusing different types of data together is applicable in a variety of application areas. Absolutely.
[Cody Simms] (5:20 - 5:31)
And I was reading something about work you did in the Arctic in terms of permafrost mapping, which does not sound like deep subsurface to me, but maybe it is considered as such. Explain a little bit there.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (5:31 - 6:22)
Most of my research has been really that shallow surface that call it "the critical zone" because it's so critical for so many societal functions, like I just mentioned. And there we are trying to understand how, you know, the Arctic is warming faster than any place on the earth. And that means the permafrost, which has been frozen for two or more years, is degrading or thawing.
And with that means a change in how fluids move, how carbon moves through the system. But also it's important for infrastructure and energy, because a lot of those structures, whether it's roads or airports or energy installations, they're keyed in to the permafrost, which is thawing. So, there's very dynamic environment, I would say.
So, the geophysics was super helpful there to understand key controls, for example, on permafrost degradation and what that means as we look forward to continued warming.
[Cody Simms] (6:23 - 6:24)
What do we look forward to there?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (6:25 - 6:53)
We do see a changing environment in terms of the stability of that permafrost and the way that nutrients and carbon moves through the system and water. So, I mean, every place on continues to move, that one is moving faster. So, it just is more of an imperative to really under, you know, a lot of the research is how do you gain a predictive understanding of how these complex systems function and how can you better manage it, right?
That's the big, big goal in a lot of the science technology environment.
[Cody Simms] (6:54 - 7:10)
One of the big sort of climate change feedback loops that we're hoping doesn't get triggered, right, which is as the permafrost melts, it releases methane, which I suppose is sort of the center of your work, which is how much methane? Like, as far as I know, we don't really know yet what that might look like.[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (7:11 - 8:25)
Yeah, that's still a work in progress, understanding that. So, I would say there's the whole under, I'll back up and say that the earth gives us all these resources we need for humankind's existence, whether that's the energy or food or water. So, we need to kind of figure out how do we both understand that evolution, take advantage of those resources and yet protect it all at the same time.
It's really a grand challenge, I would say. So, I mean, the earth by itself is extremely complex to predict all those interactions across compartments from the bedrock to groundwater, to soil, to vegetation, to the atmosphere. I mean, those interactions are happening across spatial scales of molecular to global, across temporal scales from, you know, nanoseconds to decadal and beyond.
But then you add to that the fact that, you know, we need to use these resources and you put an energy grid or you cite different energy infrastructures on that system that is in effect changing. So, it adds another layer of complexity that is interesting to think about how do we take advantage of these resources, where at the same time ensuring that they'll be there for future generations.
[Cody Simms] (8:25 - 8:59)
You've obviously, in navigating your career, started with this, you know, very deep, literally, or I guess shallowly deep, talking about, you know, where are you focused? But, you know, a deep area of expertise. Now you are running this very large laboratory.
I think it's the largest national lab in terms of the number of scientists and folks involved in it, if I'm not mistaken, at Oak Ridge. And so you're obviously having to cut across a very wide range of topics. How did you make that shift yourself from an expert in a given field to overseeing this very broad function?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (9:00 - 11:48)Well, I do have such a pleasure and an honor to help shepherd our science portfolio here. We are the largest of what we call the Department of Energy Science Laboratories. So, there are weapons laboratories that are larger, but it's a significant lab.
We have over 7,500 folks here. And our portfolio, like you mentioned, is really beautiful, broad and deep. But I will say I, before I came to Oak Ridge National Laboratory, I was at Berkeley Lab and UC Berkeley.
So, I had, I played a range of roles at Berkeley Laboratory, including up to an associate laboratory director, which oversees a certain line of research. And, you know, just coming back to my own personal research, earth and environmental sciences by nature is an integrative research, right? You're touching biology, physics and chemistry, hydrology, you're touching all kinds of fields.
So, you absolutely get exposed to a lot. And of course, through my roles there, I played a number of leadership management roles. So, you get sort of used to being exposed to fields and liking that and helping to move some of those along.
So, I had an opportunity to come to Oak Ridge National Laboratory, which is a big portfolio. You know, it's been really, really a thrill. You spoke with John Wagner some time ago, right?
From Idaho National Laboratory who, they do a great job with their nuclear energy and some of the other areas. And Oak Ridge National Laboratory was born through the Manhattan Project. And so many of your listeners will be familiar with the Manhattan Project, of course, and hopefully most have seen the Oppenheimer movie.
Oak Ridge National Laboratory didn't feature prominently in that movie, but it certainly was one of the laboratories that was working at that time to help to develop, in this case, we were producing plutonium for the war effort. You know, so we had a real focus at this laboratory in building this reactor that went up really quickly, the first sustained reactor for use in developing, you know, from that spawned a lot of work in nuclear energy and isotopes, and we developed the field of neutron scattering and so on and so forth. So, a lot spawned from that, but I would say, fast forward 80 plus years, the nation's needs evolve and so do those of the national laboratories, right?
And so we've evolved into this wonderful system of 17 national laboratories and Oak Ridge is one of those. We all have our own personalities, suite of capabilities, but in the end, we're all really working for the mission of the Department of Energy, which includes the energy, of course, and innovation, national security, and still some of the environmental cleanup efforts that are associated with those war activities and Cold War activities as well.
[Cody Simms] (11:48 - 12:17)
And at Oak Ridge, some of your signature facilities that, you know, I was able to uncover, you've got like an exascale big compute project called Frontier. You've got facilities on neutron science. You've got facilities on nanophase materials, which I don't even know what that means, so I can't wait to hear more about that.
Isotope production, fusion, R&D, like I said, a broad portfolio of things. Maybe unpack a few of those for us, so we understand a little bit about what some of these facilities do.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (12:17 - 13:52)
I think one of the unique aspects of national laboratories, besides the team-based approach that we do our research all the way back from the Manhattan Project and the fact that we do work in the mission of the Department of Energy, and that sets aside our research a little bit from, for example, universities and industry and the research side, is that we design and build and shepherd and host really powerful research infrastructure.
That's really a calling card of the national laboratories. At Oak Ridge, we happen to have just a beautiful ecosystem of user facilities. You named some of those, and those are the Office of Science ones that you mentioned.
And the idea here is that Department of Energy really funds us to, as I said, build and shepherd and host these, and people can apply from all over the world to take advantage of these for their own research, to bring their own questions and their own hypotheses. Yes, we have a supercomputer called "Frontier", but we have delivered a series of world-leading computers when they first debuted. This one in 2022 was super exciting because it crashed through a longstanding barrier at the time called the exascale barrier, which means that it was the first one that could calculate a billion, billion calculations per second.
So extraordinary! Yes, we have a neutron, we have a high-flux isotope reactor that provides isotopes. We actually are the largest producer of isotopes in the Western world, and so we provide isotopes through that facility that are used- What do isotopes do?
[Cody Simms] (13:52 - 13:55)
Just maybe unpack that, both for my benefit and for our listeners.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (13:56 - 15:28)
They're stable and radio isotopes, and so they can be used for all kinds of purposes. We use isotopes in medical purposes for imaging lungs and for treating prostate cancer, and we use radio isotopes that can give off energy for powering the Mars rover right now. Use isotopes if you've ever gone through TSA screening and you get pulled aside, that's us.
We have an isotope that's being used there, so there's lots for energy, for national security, for medical, and just actually for basic research. We produce a lot of those isotopes, so it's something that I wasn't that familiar with either before I came here, but it's really a big service for ourselves and the United States and our allies. That high-flux isotope reactor actually also was used for neutron scattering, and again, this is born out of our origins in building quickly the graphite reactor for the Manhattan Project.
Actually, back in the early days, our folks realized that those neutrons could be used to infringe on materials and scatter, and we could use that scattering signature to understand details about a material. One of our scientists have recognition and the Nobel Prize for developing that field of neutron scattering, and we've gone on to build the neutron spallation source, which is another way of providing neutrons for deep material study in ways that it's difficult to do with other techniques because of the nature of the neutron.
[Cody Simms] (15:28 - 15:45)
These would be instances where a private company or even a university can't have access to some of these materials in terms of their ability to produce them. They have to come through the federal government to access them because they're essentially controlled substances. Am I following that correctly?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (15:45 - 17:16)
Right, with the isotopes. There is a Department of Energy isotope program that really controls what isotopes we are producing and where that goes. That's not our function.
Ours is to develop the techniques and to improve the techniques so that we can deliver those. But on the neutrons, these are actually facilities where people can come and bring their own materials, their own stuff, and they can access that, similar to the Nanophase Material Science Center, as you mentioned earlier, which is also a lot of different instruments, specialists, and working with users to help them address their question, and our Leadership Computing Facility. All of these are places where some of the top scientists in the world come to ask the hardest questions, the questions you can only answer using a Nexus scale machine, or you can only answer with neutrons.
Now, I say we also have other facilities here that are also world-leading but also engage a different part of our research ecosystem in the United States and the world. For example, we have the Manufacturing Demonstration Facility, also known as MDF. This attracts thousands of collaborators and visitors per year.
This really pioneered large-scale 3D additive manufacturing and printing. We've printed cars. We've printed houses.
But for energy, we're printing things like big propellers that are used in hydropower and large wind blades. But it's really developing the approach.
[Cody Simms] (17:16 - 17:25)
I just saw a big kairos. The nuclear company, who has a large power purchase agreement from Google, I think is doing some work with you all around 3D printing components, if I understand correctly.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (17:25 - 18:36)
Absolutely. Yeah, that just got announced today, that partnership with TVA as well. Yes, they needed a bio-shield for their reactor efforts very quickly.
If you go on the market for that, some of those large structures can take a year. There's a supply chain aspect with a lot of our energy strategies. They turned to us.
Within a couple of weeks, actually, we printed the molds that could be used on-site to pour concrete and build that. That's one example. The beautiful thing about what we call our applied energy facilities like that is that folks come here.
They bring sometimes their equipment that they're beta testing or their concepts. They work with us to build sometimes whole new businesses, sometimes whole new product lines, oftentimes concepts. But again, we're supporting that so that they go out and they take these ideas and turn it into new technologies and economic impacts, really.
It's a very different way that we're working with our user facilities, but we have over 10,000 folks a year that come here to access these. They're really wonderful, sweet facilities.
[Cody Simms] (18:37 - 19:24)
You mentioned that you're working within the priorities and work scope of the U.S. Department of Energy. DOE, over the last 12 years, has definitely changed its point of view a few different times on how it thinks about what forms of energy the U.S. should be leading in, what forms of energy the U.S. should not be leading in. I would say, frankly, pretty heavily whipsawed in the last 12 months going from a very heavy clean energy program to the current DOE focusing more on nuclear, more on traditional forms of oil and gas and whatnot.
How do those policy changes impact the types of programs that you pursue? How does it impact how people think about working with the national labs in some way, shape, or form?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (19:25 - 21:21)
It's a really good question, Cody. It certainly does. I mean, our energy strategies depended, of course, on the administration and the administration priorities change.
I think the Department of Energy National Lab scientists recognize that we are a mission-driven organization. And so, in the end, we are developing capabilities that can be used for a variety of outcomes. And so, what we might have worked on in the past that are focused more on the clean energy, there's opportunities to work on energy abundance in different ways.
Now, that's at a very high level, right? When it gets down to individuals and small programs, most of our funding is through Department of Energy. So, as the Department of Energy administration changes, the Department of Energy programs often change with those, and the national laboratories are there to carry out the needs of the Department of Energy.
We do go through cycles. I think that in terms of how the workforce approaches that, it's quite different, I would say, from a professor at a university who might be interested in, you know, have a certain expertise and work in a certain line for their whole career. You do have to be able and interested to be exposed and challenged to different types of questions and be asked to work on those.
I've been in the national laboratory system two and a half decades or so and have had plenty of chances to work other places. But in the end, I have always liked thinking, you know, how can my work contribute to some things bigger? How do I get exposed to things that are a little outside of my comfort zone?
And so, you know, from a personal standpoint, it can be a positive thing as well. So, it does take a personality that is interested in teamwork, interested in mission-driven science, and recognizes that the Department of Energy's role is really to work on the priorities of the Department of Energy and the nation under that administration
[Cody Simms] (21:22 - 22:04)
It seems like right now, from an energy perspective, we already talked about some of the work you're doing in fission with Kairos Power. You and I were chatting a little bit beforehand on a company that I've gotten to know called Atomic Canyon that's doing some work also on the nuclear fission side with respect to your Frontier Exocompute supercomputer. You know, I don't know if you can share more about that.
I think that's public information. I would assume there's work you're doing around grid resiliency. I would assume there's work you're doing around carbon capture and some of that at the moment.
But maybe share some of the energy projects that are jumping out and any specific examples around collaborations on the public-private side that you can share or just helpful in terms of adding color or folks.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (22:04 - 25:31)
Through all of this space. So, we certainly are working on a variety of energy strategies. You mentioned fission and nuclear energy.
We've long had a role in that. And in fact, I mean, of course, nuclear energy is really having a heyday across the whole nation, right? As the need for AI data centers grow and the need for baseload.
But I would say in this area in East Tennessee, there's also really a resurgence in nuclear energy. And in fact, I think around our laboratory is the largest aggregation of companies that are associated with nuclear, whether it's nuclear energy or adjacents. And that includes enrichments and folks making some of the parts and so forth.
There's over 200 companies surrounding the laboratory out here. So, there's an awful lot of partnerships on a variety of things. From fuels, we do use our supercomputer to explore different phenomena.
We have big companies coming in as well. Orano just came in with a multi-billion dollar effort to develop enrichment capabilities for nuclear power in this area. Our governor has created a nuclear task force.
So, there's an awful lot of energy, no pun intended. And we're working on a variety of fronts there. And with our partners, certainly like you have talked with the folks from INL, we work with them and others in the laboratory system as well, but certainly with the private sector partners around here.
I would say that another area that is super interesting to us and we are leaning into is fusion energy, using fission energy to power this generation and fusion energy with the potential to power generations to come. I think that this is really exciting. The National Academies identified fusion as one of the 14 biggest engineering challenges of our time.
Department of Energy has identified fusion as a potential game changer and sketch out a bold decadal vision. And we are a key in fusion energy at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. We partner with a variety of fusion companies here in East Tennessee and elsewhere.
Here locally, for example, is Type One, who has signed an agreement with our other partner, Tennessee Valley Authority, the nation's largest public utility to build a 350 megawatt fusion power plant on the grounds of an old retired TVA cold power generation nearby. It's a super exciting time, not just because of the NIF and other recent proof of concepts that have shown fusion may be within the realm here of 10, 15 years, give or take five. And as I'm sure you know, so it's coming within the realm of possibility.
The private sector is very engaged here, right? $10 billion of private sector money since 2021, 60% of that is in the U.S. And of course, Department of Energy, Fusion Energy Science is investing. Here, I would say, coming back to your original question, is that the importance of private-public partnerships around is huge.
We need to work together simultaneously on demonstrating strategies and de-risking components, while at the same time, there's a fair amount of basic research that's needed. How can we have materials that can withstand these temperatures that are hotter than the sun for a time period? How do we handle the fuels and the blankets and plasma stability and so forth?
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[Cody Simms] (26:34 - 26:54)
From fusion, you mentioned NIF, the National Ignition Facility. You know, I also think of Lawrence Livermore as being a real driver on the fusion side from a National Labs perspective. Where does Oak Ridge play in that spectrum?
You guys have a heavy materials focus. Is that part of what you're contributing there? Or are there other aspects too?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (26:54 - 30:08)
I would say that our strengths are in certainly the materials for extreme environments. Again, that dates from all the way back. We're a real strength in materials all the way back from our beginning in the fuel systems.
In the high-performance computing, we have a strength there. Even on, I would say, materials through manufacturing, some of our work, for example, is using AI to understand what potential materials or alloys could potentially withstand these to actually go in and study the materials and then to think about, once we get some candidates, testing them in the lab and eventually scaling them up using manufacturing, using the approaches I mentioned. We are building a new fusion facility called Impact.
It's a material plasma experiment. This will be a first-of-a-kind facility to expose materials to high-intensity neutron radiation and heating. Basically, it'll give a material that's being tested in there the equivalent lifetime exposure to conditions typical in a fusion reactor, but only do it in two weeks.
We are developing all these kinds of things to be able to help this accelerating field be able to meet its timeline. I would say the other big place that we play a significant role beyond the basic research that we do here and our partnering activities is we lead ITER, which is over in France. It's a large partnership between 35 countries who are working together to build a big tokamak fusion reactor and to show how a burning plasma can exist for a short amount of time.
It's probably one of the largest collaboration projects in the world. We lead that for Department of Energy for the United States, part of the partnership. It's not like this will be the main big industrial fusion reactor, but what we are learning there is developing technologies, working with our many partners to develop diagnostics, to think about supply chains, to develop critical paths for some components like magnets and blankets, and really importantly, to think about developing this workforce that we're going to need for our fusion sector here. There's a variety of pieces that we play, but you're absolutely right. There's other laboratories that are in the space too, and it's really wonderful that Livermore's had the big breakthrough on ignition.
What we're mostly working on, I should say, is magnetic fusion. It's a different type of fusion where we're using magnets to sort of confine and heat pressurize the plasma and get this reaction to happen, which unlike fission, where you're separating the atom, of course, in fusion, we're fusing atoms to create a heavier atom, and that releases energy as well. So, that heated coolant then, which could be healing, for example, then could be used to drive a turbine to create electricity.
A different type of fusion strategy, if you will, than what's been demonstrated, but it's all very, very exciting. Again, it's sort of moving within the realm of the not-too-distant future, so it's within grasp.
[Cody Simms] (30:09 - 30:50)
You mentioned the pilot, pilot's maybe not the right word, the collaboration you're doing with a local fusion company, and it's being pursued in part because you're able to use, it sounds like what is a retired coal facility that I assume has Interconnect and is ready to go on the grid at some point. You're in Appalachia, there in Tennessee, obviously a heavy coal history to powering the local grid that is in the process of being retired. How much does that local priority of what is needed in your backyard factor into the types of projects that happen at Oak Ridge relative to national priorities overall?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (30:51 - 31:51)
I will say that what I feel in this East Tennessee area is a huge enthusiasm for nuclear, both fission and fusion. There's a huge receptivity to this type of strategy, so nothing but positive encouragement, collaboration, partnership. As I mentioned, our governor has recently stood up a task force.
We had a big conference a few weeks ago that some years ago was 100 people, and now it's 1,500 people and people from utilities and industry and national laboratories and academia all really trying to say, we know this is really critical to accelerate these energies. What are the biggest challenges that we have to solve? How do we make partnerships to do it better, faster?
I don't hear in this area the kind of messaging that might be prevalent in other areas in Appalachian. There's a real receptivity to nuclear, probably dating back to Oak Ridge's presence in this area from the very beginning.
[Cody Simms] (31:52 - 31:54)
Outside of nuclear, other energy priorities right now?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (31:54 - 33:15)
You mentioned the grid, and certainly we are working in the grid in a variety of ways. I mean, any of these energies we're talking about, but as well, the other types of energy. I mean, this grid was initiated well over 100 years ago, so it certainly wasn't designed to withstand what we're asking it to do now, which is whether that's extreme weather or cybersecurity or two-way flow of energy from the grid to buildings to cars and then uptake different types of energy.
So, this whole need for the grid of the future to be smart and reliable and secure, many of the laboratories are working on that. Actually, one of the facilities that we have is called Grid C. It is the only Department of Energy Office of Electricity facility, and so under one roof, we bring together all the different pieces that we need to think about, not only the components, but testbeds and up to that integrated system from power electronics to grid storage to sensors and controls, cybersecurity, high-performance computing.
So, we have the opportunity with our partners to test and deploy breakthrough grid technologies and use some of our special assets like our high-performance computing to do so. So, let me just give examples.
[Cody Simms] (33:15 - 33:16)
Yeah, any cool stuff? Give me some example
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (33:17 - 35:17)
Yeah, well, we're talking about high-performance computing. Not too long ago, we ran one of the largest electric power simulations, the Western Interconnect, ever done on the largest computer at that time, which is Frontier, and we simulated what a wind disturbance looks like and how that grid could be rapidly reconfigured. That simulation converged in 15 minutes, and so time is getting shorter on those sort of things.
Of course, quantum could speed up those sort of calculations even more as we move into quantum computing, but the idea that these tools that are in the research realm could eventually be used to rapidly reconfigure to know where energy assets are and help blackouts for our communities be as small as possible is a big thing. We also, I would say, utilities have been in the past traditionally able to isolate their networks to reduce cyber attacks, and of course, these evolving and connected energy smart components that I just mentioned really necessitate new solutions there for enhancing the security posture of the grid. So we have been developing and implementing with many partners system-level architecture to kind of help to make this end-to-end security, I would say, more robust.
Some of that are things like working on alternative timing and synchronization. The grid relies on GPS. GPS is vulnerable, so working on national-scale alternative timing with very less than 100 nanoseconds synchronization accuracy.
We've deployed and developed quantum key distribution for protecting information along communication channels, including what's happening in the grid, and we actually are working with several other laboratories on cyber-physical research on actual energized grid systems, including trying to understand and get insights on how some of our adversaries' capabilities could infiltrate, manipulate the grid and trying to sort of get out in front of that.
[Cody Simms] (35:17 - 36:01)
It feels like operational security around our physical facilities is, what I can understand just based on conversations I've had, like an incredibly under-invested-in thing broadly. And so, you know, especially as you factor AI and eventually quantum getting into the ability to be that much faster at cracking into systems, having some type of, what's the word? I don't even know what I'm looking for, but comfort, I guess, that our critical infrastructure in the U.S., whether it's public or private, has good on-site operational security around cyber attacks feels like one of the most important things that nobody's talking about from where I sit.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (36:02 - 36:58)
Oh, no, I think you're right, Cody. I mean, and you brought up AI into it as well. So, it's operational security.
It's not just the operations center, right? It's everything. There's just a lot of places for infiltration.
And I mean, I kind of think about the internet 30 years ago, where we didn't think about cyber security, right? And the public investment was low. And there's definitely a need for increased understanding of all of our energy infrastructure.
And then throwing AI in the mix, like you said, is a pretty important priority right now. That's recognized. There's a lot of work to be done.
[Cody Simms] (36:37 - 37:01)
In addition to all the work you're doing on the energy side, which obviously is super critical for this podcast and for our listeners, you know, it seems like you also support a lot of emerging innovation and emerging tech that is essentially enablement that is driving the future of how compute and technology even work. Maybe share a little bit about some of those projects too for us?[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (37:02 - 38:48)
Well, we've already talked about AI, which is certainly one of the emerging technologies. I would say another area that will be disruptive, but maybe in a decade or so, is quantum. So, we are absolutely leaning into what does a quantum-enabled future look like?You know, the world is celebrating the year of quantum this year, recognizing 100 years since quantum physics was discovered. And now we focus on, you know, not just understanding that physics at the smallest scale, but how can we control and engineer quantum systems, recognizing its properties of superposition and entanglement? You know, how do we move it like we are today with the internet and everything to kind of be this connected system?
So, there are many pieces that Oak Ridge is working on here. We've already talked a little bit about high-performance computing and Oak Ridge's role in creating new architectures, including the most recent one at the Exascale that have involved different types of architectures as well as GPUs and CPUs. We think about computers as we look forward that include classical computing together with AI, together with quantum, so that basically when a question is asked or submitted to a machine, that machine could decide really what part of that question could be best solved on what type of architecture and give a holistic and faster and better response, for example.
But there's a variety of things that we're doing in the quantum space, from quantum communications to creating new quantum materials that can be used in devices towards this future of a real scalable and interconnected quantum system that when it's developed, we do think it will, like many disruptive technologies, really reshape our world and how we live and communicate and interact in the future.
[Cody Simms] (38:48 - 39:35)
I mean, it seems like from where I sit, I think about energy and climate change problems and AI can have a huge role to play in solving many challenges there, whether it's automation of the grid, whether it's new material innovation for carbon capture, for making solar panels more efficient, for making battery storage better, etc. And yet, currently AI consumes voracious amounts of energy, right? And so it feels like to me, much like fusion could be an incredible leap forward in terms of generating abundance of energy, quantum can also be a great leap forward in that it can enable high capacity compute with, in theory, substantially lower energy requirements as well, right?[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (39:35 - 41:47)
For the questions, you know, that it's best adapted to solve, yes. So, there is a piece about how can we get more compute per energy if we combine technologies. And there's also the piece about how can we do it better rather than making simplifications that we do now.I will also say, since you mentioned the AI, something that we are really excited about is how do we, when I say we, I will say, you know, across many of our partner laboratories and certainly at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, this idea about AI and automation connected with some of those facilities that we mentioned before, some of our unique laboratories. With the idea that, you know, science is evolving and our insights coming so fast, it's hard for individuals to really wrap their arm around it. As we've talked about earlier, a lot of questions set at disciplines, intersections between disciplines.
There's so much publications and data and theory. So, the concept that our scientific method, which has been around since the 16th, 17th century, where, you know, you ask, understand your information, you ask a hypothesis, you design an experiment, you do an experiment, you analyze the results and sort of rinse and repeat, is really too slow to keep pace with all the information that's out there and how fast, as we've been talking, we need to move the science.
So, we have been working on developing a concept of laboratories of the future, whereby agentic AI, with a human in the loop, would really help to, not to automate laboratories and facilities, but to connect them and to engage with a human and what types of questions they were asking to help us more easily access the data or the theories across a laboratory, across laboratories and industries and universities, across theory and so forth.
And we see this as a possibility for being able to enhance the overall capabilities of particularly the national laboratories that, in turn, will enhance our ability to understand things quicker and faster and better. Actually, even I would say go after things we currently consider intractable, like how do we understand emergent phenomena?
[Cody Simms] (41:48 - 41:53)
Would you start with sort of a collaborative simulation environment or something else for speeding that up?[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (41:54 - 42:50)
Digital twins is certainly part of that. I will say at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, we've had an initiative here where we have 11 different self-driving or autonomous labs in different disciplines, catalysis over here and manufacturing over here. A lot of those have a digital twin aspect to them.But the idea is how do we connect these up to each other? How do we if you will, build a new way of doing research for the 21st century that allows us to take advantage of the extreme capabilities that we have at the laboratories, but do it at a pace that allows us to stay at a front. In effect, this would be combining our scientists' diverse domain expertise, their ethics and the judgment with sort of the speed and scalability of AI.
That's really the marriage that we're looking for as we look forward kind of in this next decade of innovation, is how can we do this better? And agentic AI is going to be a huge piece of that, we think.
[Cody Simms] (42:51 - 43:19)
Let's talk about how Oak Ridge National Labs and maybe it's the National Lab System in general works in terms of how do third-party companies, whether they're big companies, whether they're startups, how do they come in? How do they engage? There's this acronym that I came across as I was getting ready for this conversation, CRADA, I think it is.CRADA. CRADA, CRADA. See, I don't even know how to pronounce it.
Maybe describe a little bit about what the mechanism looks like for folks to come in and engage with you all.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (43:20 - 43:51)
Thanks for asking that. Yeah, there's a variety of ways. I've already mentioned some, right, through shared research projects, through industry coming in and working with us at our facilities.Certainly, we work on a variety of projects with people and have work out what IP looks like. There are a few different ways too. So, CRADA is a partnership model or it's a research and development approach.
And we define in that contract what we're going to work on together and it protects IP in different ways.
[Cody Simms] (43:52 - 43:56)
Cooperative Research and Development Agreement, I think is what the acronym actually is.[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (43:56 - 44:35)
Yes, Research and Development Agreement. That's a common one. There are a variety of models and opportunities that Department of Energy actually puts out for technical, you know, DOE prizes and programs and technical assistance where they will support a partnership with folks at the national laboratories.We were talking about Holocene before you turned on the mic here. And there are also entrepreneurial spin-in programs, which are really neat for folks that are early stage of a startup company. There's a program that they can apply to help build their company at the laboratory.
Right. And we support that.
[Cody Simms] (44:36 - 44:47)
We got introduced by an entrepreneur named Keaton Ross, who was a co-founder of a company called Holocene, building carbon capture technology that actually pretty early in their journey ended up getting acquired by Oxy.[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (44:48 - 46:34)
Yeah. The beautiful story is that early on, the CEO recognized that there was great work being done and a patent had been filed and came to work under this program to build a company. And then they went out and stayed in the local area, which is something we love to see as well, and has met with a lot of success.So, we have a lot of folks and different companies that come in through these spin-in companies. Ours is called Innovation Crossroads, but several of the other laboratories, they're called the LEAP program under Department of Energy. That's another way that folks access.
In Tennessee itself, we have technical assistant models that the state provides. So, folks in industry can actually, through it's a voucher program, get access to the laboratories through using those types of programs. So there's a variety of pathways, I think, for folks to get to the laboratory.
I'll say Oak Ridge National Laboratory, I didn't emphasize it too much earlier when I talked about, we started talking about what this laboratory is, but it is a science lab with a translational ethos. And what I mean by that is that while we do a lot of basic science, it's really in our DNA to try and get those basic discoveries and insights into solutions for energy, for security, and whatnot. So, we do a lot of work internally here for cultivating the recognition about how important it is to get our discoveries and our insights out from the lab into the marketplace.
We are super thrilled that we do tend year over year to be at the top or among the top of the national labs in terms of IP and also things like R&D 100 awards for developing these technologies. So, we're recognized for that.
[Cody Simms] (46:35 - 47:40)
When I think of innovation ecosystems in the U.S., obviously the national labs have always been a part of that, or at least since, sort of the World War II era, right? You mentioned the Manhattan Project. I would say shrouded in secrecy in terms of what was being developed then to the Cold War era being sort of this bellwether innovation center for broad energy innovation, a lot around nuclear from the beginning, et cetera, from a power perspective.Today, this sort of collaborative public-private model that you've been talking about. At the same time, the private industry in the U.S. from an R&D perspective has also evolved. You can think of Bell Labs and IBM and some of the innovation centers of maybe the 1970s, 80s, 90s to where we are today with Google and Microsoft and these massive R&D efforts.
I'm asking you to put on a little bit of a historical context from before you were at the lab, but how have you seen the private sectors R&D work in the U.S. evolving and what does that mean for the national labs in terms of how those two worlds work together or not?
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (47:41 - 50:00)
Super good question, Cody. Well, you're right. The mission of Department of Energy has sort of changed over time.You mentioned several foci, of course, and there was the energy crisis, right, in the 70s that sort of launched more the Department of Energy focus. I would say that we are at a point in time where innovations are accelerating so rapidly. We are trying to figure out how the U.S. can stay ahead, honestly, and we can't do it without partnerships. That's particularly important in many of these critical and emerging technologies, so the generative AI and quantum and what we see in automated laboratories and how that could really advance many of our innovations. We are at, I think, an inflection point for how we partner. We have partnered on many things through the years and many things very successfully, but because of the pace of acceleration and because the DOE laboratories, I would say, really are a powerhouse of multidisciplinary science and technology, massive amounts of scientific data that's important for AI, these abilities that will continue to crank out just some of the most important data that can't really come from elsewhere. I think we are really, at this point, we're figuring out what this partnership looks like in this new realm.
I would just say it's really recently that I think folks have recognized that there's a real opportunity to work together in different ways as we look forward on all of these kind of topics. Right now, the Department of Energy, of course, is developing its own vision for what artificial intelligence and how we can take advantage of the laboratories, but it has to be side-by-side with industry. Our high-performance computing, that's always been a remit of the Department of Energy, who has turned to a few of its labs like Oak Ridge to say, build the next generation of computers that's going to be the fastest in the world or the most energy efficient.
We build new architectures that then go on to be used in the private sector. The game has changed with all the money that's being put into this now because of AI. And so, we really think about how can we do this together in a way that really helps us all move forward.
[Cody Simms] (50:01 - 50:40)
You mentioned that Oak Ridge, in particular, has a staff of 7,000 plus people. I'm sure you have conversations all the time with people who are thinking about, from a career perspective, should I continue to build my career in pure research working in a government or lab context, or should I shift over and work in a commercial focus? How do you help people navigate those types of decisions as they're grappling with them?Should I keep doing what I'm doing here? Should I go work at Meta and take on some big R&D, AI role there? It's such an interesting time for scientists and research scientists, I would think, in terms of career optionality right now.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (50:41 - 52:02)
It is, and I actually talk with a lot of students, and I always encourage folks to do internships because each of these places, whether it's a national laboratory, industry, university research, even a nonprofit, they're all different styles of working, and they're driven by different motives or missions, if you will. It really is an individual thing. I can say I've worked for an industry, I've been with universities, I've worked at national laboratories, and I know what I like to do.Everybody has their own. I think the other piece of that, Cody, is that, of course, folks who are just starting the workforce now are likely going to have multiple jobs, and so it's not unusual that people will float around. I think that the people that work at national laboratories, and increasingly so, are really excited that there's so much to do from an innovation standpoint that really, oftentimes, needs to work at intersections between fields, needs very unique, world-class facilities, and also sees the opportunity for partnership that there's a lot of excitement about the work at the national laboratories.
But as we talked about earlier, it also takes a certain amount of person that's comfortable enough with changes, right, and able to not just adapt but be enthusiastic about thinking about things a different way.
[Cody Simms] (52:03 - 52:17)
We're clearly living in a time when our university research systems are a bit under fire at the moment, right, and so I guess even in the national labs, even though priorities may shift, maybe it's a more stable place for research at the moment than being in a university. I don't know.[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (52:18 - 53:08)
I don't know. I would say a key differentiator is that folks at the labs tend to work on large team-based projects, right, that can continue for quite some time, often. I mean, that's a great oversimplification, but I do think a lot of people at the laboratory, and I know I'm one of those who was always really satisfied to work with different people that brought different skills, expertise to the table and pulled my science in ways I wouldn't have done working alone, and I contributed to something that was bigger than I could have done alone, right?So, I think that's the essence of a national laboratory, but I also enjoyed working in industry. I, you know, certainly enjoy research at a university as well. So, I think it's up to individuals to figure out where they're most sparked.
[Cody Simms] (53:08 - 54:00)
The last thought that I've had, and I'm curious just to hear your reaction to it, is the national labs, I think, really grew up, obviously, in the Cold War era, where there was, the U.S. had a very clear sort of geopolitical point of view, and, you know, the U.S. versus the Soviet Union was a clear race to win at the time. And, you know, we went through this period in the 90s, 2000s, 20-teens, when obviously there were different threats and things the U.S. had to worry about. But now with China and the AI race, it is clear that there is another sort of big push happening at the moment.And it feels like, you know, we talked about sort of the rise of private R&D and everything with, you know, big tech and everything, but it does feel like we're at another inflection point moment in terms of the U.S.'s need or desire to drive innovation in a big way.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (54:00 - 54:57)
Absolutely. Our nation's security, our economic development is all dependent on innovation. We have a lot of work to do to make sure that we can maintain our leadership in many of these areas, not to say that we don't value collaboration, international collaboration, as we very much do, and work with many of our partners and allies across the world on big things that we can't do alone.It is a really important time, as we were talking about critical and emerging technologies, right? The United States has certainly lost its edge in many of these. And, you know, that has a lot to say for who we will be in generations to come.
It's a pivotal time with this pace of innovation growing that we really lean in and recognize the value here for who we are, who we are as a nation. You know, that comes back to our STEM, our workforce internally, and all kinds of flow-down needs that we have.
[Cody Simms] (54:57 - 55:23)
Dr. Hubbard, thanks so much for joining today. And I can't wait to continue to see the work you all are doing. It's so fun when I see headlines jumping up like I did today with the Kairos Energy announcement.I'm like, "oh, I'm about to talk to her." "I can't wait to hear more about that." And it feels like these little touch points happen quite a bit.
Thanks for helping all the innovators around us leverage your resources and for being a great collaboration point and partner for so many out there who are building the future.
[Dr. Susan Hubbard] (55:24 - 55:26)
Thank you for the work that you do and for having me on your show.[Cody Simms] (55:27 - 55:54)
Inevitable is an MCJ podcast. At MCJ, we back founders driving the transition of energy and industry and solving the inevitable impacts of climate change. If you'd like to learn more about MCJ, visit us at mcj.vc and subscribe to our weekly newsletter at newsletter.mcj.vc. Thanks and see you next episode.
