Episode 221: Benji Backer, American Conservation Coalition

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Aug 8

Today's guest is Benji Backer, Founder and President of the American Conservation Coalition (ACC).

ACC is focused on building grassroots environmental movement amongst the right-of-center space for climate action, with 150 chapters across the country. Benji is a passionate environmentalist and out to change the minds of people who think conservative and climate change advocate don't belong in the same sentence.

We have a great discussion in this episode about Benji's upbringing, what led him to care about climate change, how he reconciles that with his conservative viewpoints, and the fact that the Republican Party hasn't necessarily put climate change as a front and center issue. We also talk about ACC's work and their theory of change. And no conversation would be complete without covering the roles of innovation and policy, and the current polarized political climate and path forwards from here.

Enjoy the show!

You can find Jason on Twitter @jjacobs22, @mcjpod (podcast) or @mcjcollective (company). You can reach us via email at info@mcjcollective.com, where we encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.

Episode recorded July 15, 2022.

In today's episode, we cover:

An overview of the American Conservation Coalition and the work they do
Benji's background and his passion for the environment
His transition from conservative activist to climate activist
How he reconciles his passions and conservative viewpoints
The two-party system and its shortcomings
Increasing polarization in the US
Who controls the narrative in Washington vs. who gets bills passed
The Build Back Better Bill
The Republican party's shift away from conservation in the early 2000s
Issues with the climate narrative leaving people out
Benji's views on how to balance self-interest and taking action on climate solutions
The role of government in addressing the climate crisis
Consumer behavior changes
The intersection between of climate change and environmental justice in cities and rural communities
Benji's key priorities over the next 12-24 months
ACC's Climate Commitment plan
Who he wants to hear from

Jason Jacobs (00:00:00):
Hey everyone, Jason here. I am The My Climate Journey show host. Before we get going, I wanted to take a minute and tell you about the My Climate Journey, or MCJ as we call it, membership option. Membership came to be because there were a bunch of people that were listening to the show that weren't just looking for education, but they were longing for a peer group as well. So we set up a Slack community for those people that's now mushroomed into more than 1300 members. There is an application to become a member, it's not an exclusive thing, there's four criteria we screen for, determination to tackle the problem of climate change, ambition to work on the most impactful solution areas, optimism that we can make a dent and we're not wasting our time for trying, and a collaborative spirit. Beyond that, the more diversity, the better. There's a bunch of great things that have come out of that community, a number of founding teams that have met in there, a number of nonprofits that have been established, a bunch of hiring that's been done, a bunch of companies that have raised capital in there, a bunch of funds that have gotten limited partners or investors for their funds in there, as well as a bunch of events and programming by members and for members and some open source projects that are getting actively worked on that hatched in there as well. At any rate, if you want to learn more, you can go to myclimatejourney.co, the website, and click the become a member tab at the top, enjoy the show.
Jason Jacobs (00:01:34):
Hello everyone. This is Jason Jacobs and welcome to My Climate Journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change and try to figure out how people like you and I can help. Today's guest is Benji Backer, founder and president of the American Conservation Coalition, a Right-of-center environmental organization that he started in 2017 while in college. Benji's out to change the minds of people who think conservative and climate change advocate don't belong in the same sentence. We have a great discussion in this episode about Benji's upbringing, what led him to care about climate change in the first place, how he reconciles that with his conservative viewpoints and the fact that the Republican Party hasn't necessarily put climate change as a front and center issue. We talk about his views on the reasons for that, how that came about, when that came about, why that came about, and the path forwards. We talk about ACC's work and the theory of change. And we also talk about the nature of the problem overall and how to balance things like climate change and energy poverty, and how to think about the role of climate and social justice in addressing the issue. We talk about the role of innovation, the role of policy, and we also talk about polarization in general and how the country got to where it's at, whether its best days are behind us and the path forwards to right the ship and get us going where we need to go as a country and as a species. Benji, welcome to the show.
Benji Backer (00:03:28):
It is awesome to be here, pumped to have this conversation and pretty important topic that we're discussing that you have an amazing podcast for.
Jason Jacobs (00:03:36):
Thanks. Well, no, I was telling you before we started recording, but I take every episode seriously, but I actually had some pre-episode jitters, almost like pre-game jitters back from my sports days leading into this one, because I know you've got a bit of a tight rope to walk given that you're pushing a climate agenda in conservative circles. And I've also got a tight rope to walk in that we're a big tent kind of place, but we hold every guest's feet to the fire. And I think if you put those together, it's kind of unclear what's going to happen, but I have a feeling it will be entertaining and potentially could really be an important discussion. So we'll see what we can do here.
Benji Backer (00:04:11):
Well, those are the best discussions. You don't like to watch a sports game when you know what the outcome's going to be, but you sure love it when it's TBD and I completely agree. So it is going to be fun.
Jason Jacobs (00:04:20):
Yeah. And also just a disclaimer for the wonks, because I know there's going to be some wants listening that like work on politics and policy for a living, and inevitably after they finish the episode, they're going to say, "Jason, didn't ask them about this and didn't ask them about that." And it's like, look, I'm going to do the best I can hear, but I am not a wonk. I don't spend my time in politics, I don't spend my time on policy. I'm here for this discussion because I know that politics and policy are super important to push on addressing the problem. And I also know, or I believe that we're just not going to get meaningful stuff done without bipartisan support, and therefore it's a super important discussion to have, but I don't come in with a surgical trained eye, and so apologies in advance to all the wonks.
Benji Backer (00:05:04):
Well, I also will apologize in advance to the wonks. I always say, I know a lot less than I should. I know more than I have ever expected I would know about this topic, but I also don't know everything. And I think I see myself as a really important advocate, but I'm not a policy wonk either. I don't have all the answers and I don't pretend to.
Jason Jacobs (00:05:24):
Yeah. And I think that last part is the important part. One thing I've learned from doing this for four years or so now, four years in I've learned a ton, but I still feel like I know very little, I still have so much to learn, but I've also learned you can have an impact on the way as you're coming up to speed. You just have to be careful about it. And one of the things you need to be careful about is not getting over your skis.
Benji Backer (00:05:45):
Absolutely. And I think when it comes to this issue, you will never be able to know everything because this is such a massive issue at a global scale. Every region of the country is different, let alone regions of the world, in terms of the climate impacts, in terms of the energy sources, in terms of the way people are living, the economics around climate, pro-climate things, it is so different everywhere. I think that the goal should be to learn as much as you can and be the best advocate that you can, but you can't know everything. Even if policy wonk or science is your background, you still can't know everything, and I think we've got a huge opportunity to just do what we can.
Jason Jacobs (00:06:24):
I agree. Well, I'm not much of a guy for structure, but we'll put a little bit of structure around the discussion. Maybe start by just talking a bit about American Conservation Coalition and the work that you do.
Benji Backer (00:06:34):
Awesome. Yeah. So I was sitting in my freshman of college class about entrepreneurial environmentalism and I had been a political activist nationally for a few years, I had already been verified on Twitter and had news experience and all this stuff, but it was not about the environment, it was just about politics in general. And I was very involved in conservative circles, much more so than I am today in terms of just the general politics. And one of the things I always have been passionate about throughout my entire life is my love for the environment. And I've always been frustrated by the right's approach on it, which is thankfully changing. And I sat there in that class thinking about all this during the presidential election of 2016, so obviously heightened emotions and more frustration. And I thought to myself, "There's no organization for young, or anybody that's right-of-center, to join in this entire country on climate."
Benji Backer (00:07:31):
And so I bought a domain name in class. I tweeted out, "Does anyone want to join this organization I'm starting?" And about five and a half years later, we are focused on building grassroots amongst the Right-of-center space for climate action. And we have 150 chapters across the country, we have almost two dozen full time staff, we've made a huge impact on the hill. And we really do what most environmental organizations do, which is educate, equip, train young people, or anybody, but specifically for us young people, help them advocate and then also represent them in the policy discussions. So it's been really fulfilling and never expected to be here, but here we are.
Jason Jacobs (00:08:12):
Well, I'll try a corollary. And again, I'm not an expert on all these different organizations in the non-profit and advocacy world, but I did have at one point the head of Citizens' Climate Lobby on the show. I'll just try this on as to pressure test how to think about you, but is it similar to Citizens' Climate Lobby, but focused on just a different topic in demographic, which is conservative young people that care about climate?
Benji Backer (00:08:36):
We're great partners with CCL and I think there's a few differences. First of all, they have been fairly focused on one policy solution, which is the carbon price, and we are much more broad than that. And so we've been working on client policy in so many different areas and so that makes us different. Also, yes, like you said, the target audience of young people is very different, and we're also really trying to hit the center and the right-of-center space to build bipartisan consensus. But you can't be everything to everyone, so you can't reach everyone with the same message, you've got to focus, and so that's what we've done. And I think that's the reason they've been able to reach a huge spectrum, bigger than ours, is because they only focus on that one policy. And I respect them a lot for that, but we are much more focused on all climate policies that are possible as well as using youth advocates who are in the center right-of- center.
Jason Jacobs (00:09:29):
Got it. Well, I have a lot of questions about ACC. And do you go by ACC, by the way?
Benji Backer (00:09:32):
Yeah. We're the 25th thousand most popular ACC in the world. So you've got the Atlantic Coast Conference, the American Chemistry Council. So we do go by that, but the acronym was already taken, it's sad.
Jason Jacobs (00:09:51):
Well, I have a lot of questions about ACC, but before we get too far down that path, let's go in the way back machine. So it'd be great to understand better how and when and where you came to care about climate and then how and when and where that ended up intersecting with your professional pursuits?
Benji Backer (00:10:12):
Yeah. Well, I really appreciate that. And I think my story's really different than most people. There's three things that happened specifically, but it really is just a trend of my family loves the environment, we spent a lot of time in it growing up. Every summer we would go to national parks or a state park, or some sort of really great place outside in the Midwest where I grew up or somewhere out West. And there was just this part of our family that was ingrained in us to care about the environment, so that was already there. But when it comes to climate change and how that relates to it, the snowline in Wisconsin, where I grew, up was drastically going north every single year.
Benji Backer (00:10:56):
Of course, with climate change, we know some years it's not as bad, so some years it stayed the same, but overall, the snowline moved further and further north through the state, to the point where when I was younger, we were having these huge snowstorms and would have snow days. And by the time I graduated high school, it was incredibly rare for that to happen, it was more rain. And a white Christmas every year, or we had a tradition to go sledding on Christmas, turns into the last five years there hasn't been a white Christmas. And so that has been really alarming and has actually been something that my family, who my older family members, grandparents, aunts and uncles, parents, have really started to notice, and a lot of the conservative community in Wisconsin has. So that was one of them, and I won't go through all three.
Benji Backer (00:11:46):
But then the second one, just briefly, was I was in Yosemite, my whole family went on this hike and I didn't want to go because I was young and I just really was not into hiking at the time, which, I am definitely the opposite of now. So instead of going with them, I walked around the waterfalls in the main area of Yosemite and I thought to myself, "This is worth fighting with every part of my being to protect," because for the first time, just the presence of nature and the sheer beauty of it and being in it, immersed in it, something I always valued, but I never had it really hit me until that moment. Because I was alone, my family was out hiking and I was just there alone walking around and it hit me. So those two things combined and I was able to really focus on this in middle school and high school, taking classes, researching it, while I was still a conservative activist and then of course, here we are.
Jason Jacobs (00:12:44):
Did you grow up in heavily conservative circles?
Benji Backer (00:12:48):
I guess because I surrounded myself with politics from the age of 10, the answer would be yes, but I did that on my own. I started getting active in politics at 10 on my own, my family, super diverse politically, and actually skews more left-of-center than right-of-center, but they were definitely conservatives in my family. And not politically active, nobody has ever run for office or volunteered on a campaign or even put a sign in their yard, it's incredibly non-political. They vote, but they're not activists, so it was just an interest that I had from a young age.
Benji Backer (00:13:22):
And I'd researched what are the conservative versus liberal beliefs on certain issues, and this was in 2008, when I was 10 years old, John McCain, Obama, facing off. And I really felt compelled by John McCain's message of being a veteran loving this country, but also knowing that its better days are ahead and being really moderate on a lot of the social issues that I cared about at. At age 10, you don't really care about social issues, but they're just certain things that you feel like are right and wrong. But I really loved the entrepreneurial spirit of what he was saying as a conservative of the American dream and growing up and doing whatever you want to make a difference in this country, especially in the private sector. And with parents that were entrepreneurs, that really resonated with me, and then I chose to be a conservative activist at the ripe young age of 10.
Jason Jacobs (00:14:17):
And so I have more questions on that, but just one context question. Do you consider yourself an activist today?
Benji Backer (00:14:25):
Absolutely. But I would say I'm a climate activist first.
Jason Jacobs (00:14:29):
And so talk to me about that transition. So you were a conservative activist at the age of 10, now you're a climate activist first. What did that process look like for that slider to move from conservative activist to climate activist and what were the stages along the way?
Benji Backer (00:14:46):
The transition really happened when I realized that the box that I was put in as a conservative activist didn't necessarily resonate with me because I had some views on things that didn't perfectly fit within the conservative activist box. Climate was one of those, and even though I think there is a conservative way to solve, it still wasn't in the box.
Benji Backer (00:15:11):
And I have come to this realization, not only with that, but also there is no point in being involved in activism or politics unless you are truly trying to make a positive impact. And if you are trying to do that, then you need to put your values and your morals first and I wanted to do that with the one issue that I cared the most about, which is climate and the environment, which I see as the same, obviously there's a bunch of issues, sub-issues beneath it. So that's where the transition happened and that's why I started this organization was because I was losing the, "I want to be a conservative activist," and I actually tapped out for a while. There's a big news story in my hometown newspaper of me stepping away from politics, which was definitely my plan. And then I realized that I could-
Jason Jacobs (00:16:01):
And this was what, age 11 or 12?
Benji Backer (00:16:04):
This was 18. So we'd had eight years of activism behind us, but I went to college with no plans of being involved in politics ever again. But then I realized I could do something on this issue that I cared so much about. And here I am dealing with a bullcrap of... I don't know if I'm allowed to swear, bullcrap of politics.
Jason Jacobs (00:16:21):
You can, you can swear. Yeah. Swear away, spread your wings.
Benji Backer (00:16:25):
All right. The bullcrap of politics that we have to deal with every day. I don't love dealing with it, but it's necessary for the climate.
Jason Jacobs (00:16:31):
And so as you started realizing that you really cared about climate, and it sounds like maybe some other issues that weren't in the box on the conservative side, there would've been choices at that time. One choice might be to switch sides, but it seems like you didn't take that path, you more... And saying it as fact, but please correct me if I'm wrong, decided to work within the conservative side and agenda to try to push the things that weren't in the box, more squarely into the box directionally, is that a fair assessment?
Benji Backer (00:17:06):
Yeah. And a lot of people do ask me, "Why don't you just switch sides?" And it's like, "Well, my values haven't just gone away on the things that inspired me to be conservative in the first place." Not that liberals don't believe in this necessarily, but I'm a huge fan of government only when it's necessary. I'm a big fan of entrepreneurship and the American dream becoming more and more of a possibility for more Americans, but I do believe that there is an incredible opportunity that most Americans have that other people do not across the world. I'm a really big fan of a lot of the conservative principles on fiscal issues, so that hasn't changed. What has changed is my focus on an issue that isn't usually in the conservative box and I want it to be in the conservative box, not because I want conservatism to win or because conservatism is better, but because I care about getting that issue some progress and I can do so much in my individual-
Jason Jacobs (00:18:05):
Well, but you do want conservative to win though, right?
Benji Backer (00:18:08):
I want conservatives who care about climate to win. I don't want conservatives who don't care about climate to win. I'm not going to actively work against those people in a personal capacity of campaigning because I've done at the time, but I definitely am not a huge fan of electing people who don't believe in climate change or prioritize it.
Jason Jacobs (00:18:25):
Yeah. So it sounds like right now you don't believe that you need to make the choice between pushing the climate agenda forward and conservative values. And it sounds like you also believe that you can make the most progress on climate by pushing the conservative side forward. If you didn't believe that, if you came to believe that the best way to push progress on climate was to push a more democratic agenda, what would you do at that point? And I know that's not what you believe, but hypothetically.
Benji Backer (00:18:51):
Yeah. I don't think that'll ever happen because we'd need both sides, and I do think that a more conservative identity around climate is needed in terms of the policy approach so that we can get things done. However, if that were to happen, I think I would continue to be a independent voter, which I am right now, that prioritizes climate change. And I'm not a one issue voter. It is the number one issue, but it is not the sole issue that I vote on. And I would still be an independent. I have conservative beliefs, I have some liberal beliefs. There are elections where there's a radical conservative against a moderate liberal, and those are elections that I'm very much interested in electing the person who's more common sense, so I don't think that would change anything.
Jason Jacobs (00:19:40):
And this isn't what I brought you on the show to talk about, but just talking about this right now makes me think, what are your views on the two party system? Has it run its course? Is it holding us back as a country?
Benji Backer (00:19:50):
The two party system, we could do a whole podcast on that, but in short, I think it's failed us. I do think that, as I'm alluding to, I have very complicated beliefs compared to the two party system, and so does everyone else. So the fact that we are put into two boxes when the rest of the world in much smaller countries, population-wise, have expanded their parties. We are putting every single American, one of the biggest countries in the world, into two boxes, when you have 50 states, so many cultures, so many beliefs.
Benji Backer (00:20:25):
And there shouldn't be a 100 parties. But two? Come on. It is not good when Mitt Romney and Marjorie Taylor Greene have to find out how to create a path forward as Republicans, not that that's something that they're actively doing, but same with the left, they have the same thing. And Marjorie Taylor Greene and Mitt Romney do not see eye to eye on a lot of stuff, yet they have to identify with the same political party and then figure out how to move forward with that. That is not good for the American people at all, in my opinion.
Jason Jacobs (00:21:00):
And again, this wasn't the primary topic that I brought you on to talk about, but do you have any ideas there on what a more, I was going to say more compelling, but I'll say it actually a different way, which, is less dysfunctional path forward for the country might be in that regard?
Benji Backer (00:21:19):
I wish I had the answers on that, but I do have a couple steps that I think could be taken, but I definitely don't know how you do that because there's so much money and so much influence and so much name identification in the different parties. And also the first mover to try to change things has a huge disadvantage because they're going to lose for a while probably before they win, unless it's a really big name candidate at the national level. However, to help accelerate that, I think ranked- choice voting is a really cool way to try to step in and start changing that. I think that's how you can start to elect more third party candidates. It also, I think, is a much more fair system to the voters. And then I also think more people who are not happy with the two party system saying, "I'm not happy with it and I'm not just going to go along with it because that's the way it is, I'm going to push for different."
Benji Backer (00:22:11):
And I think that sounds like super cliche, but so many people who are active in politics or even just vote, they just, "Well, it's just the way it is, so I'm just going to keep doing it." And it's like, "Well, no, you don't have to." And if you're a donor, maybe don't donate because you're frustrated. It doesn't mean you have to donate to a third party that hasn't started yet, but you don't have to do things just because they are the way they are. So I think ranked-choice voting and that would be great steps, but I have no idea how you start changing that truly.
Jason Jacobs (00:22:41):
And again, this is not a topic I would've thought we'd be talking about, but my active listening is just making the pistons fire in my brain. But the polarization that's currently in the country, do you think it was always as polarized and we just didn't know as much about what each other we're thinking about? Or has it gotten more polarized lately, and if so, why?
Benji Backer (00:23:06):
I think both. And what I mean by that is, in the past you didn't have to deal with everyone else's beliefs because you weren't exposed to them as much. And maybe you were exposed to them in your family at a family gathering or whatever, but it was much less likely that you were exposed to all these different beliefs. And the most radical beliefs tend to bubble up and get the most attention, so if you are on one side and all you're hearing is all these radical things about the other side, then you're going to think, "Wow, they're going to be the downfall of America," which both sides think the other is going to be the downfall of America, which is great for our sanity, but you've got that problem, which has happened because of that exposure to all the opinions.
Benji Backer (00:23:53):
But also, the second thing is it's way worse than I think it has been in the past or that it should be because of the media and social media. The media and social media are incentivized to polarize. They are incentivized to bring on guests that are polarizing on TV. You're incentivized to say something crazy on social media and go after people. And that's where the highest engagement is, that's where the most viewers are. And then, even though you can justify it, if you're at a social media company or a media company, "Well, we're trying to stay in business, we're trying to put this views out there or whatever." Slowly that radical versus radical, or divisive versus divisive guests that you're bringing on or that you're talking about on social media, become the reality, and people start to believe that's how society is right now.
Benji Backer (00:24:50):
And so you have all these people who are not divisive at their core, who are now divisive because they feel like the other side is at their throats because they've been misled. And I think that is a really big problem and it's something that I have been thinking a lot about. And honestly, I could be so much more famous on social media and get more TV hits, and I have so many stories about examples of where I literally didn't get it because of my lack of divisiveness, but that is what incentivizes people to become famous these days. And I've never gone down that path and I could, and so many other people could, and a lot of people do and it's really bad.
Jason Jacobs (00:25:33):
Do you worry that our best days as a country are behind us?
Benji Backer (00:25:37):
I do worry about that, but I don't believe they are. I'm not convinced that they aren't, but I don't believe they are.
Jason Jacobs (00:25:44):
And when you think about the path forwards, I know we talked about how the two party system isn't optimal in your view, and by the way, that's not to suggest that I'm agree with you or disagree with you. I just meant your view because that's the view that you express. But given that the two party system is what we've got today, when you think about these big, important things that we need to do as a country, both for the world that we inhabit and rely on, but also for our country to continue to be one of the leaders in that world that is respected and learned from, and look to when it comes to the behaviors and actions of the rest of the world. And that might be national security that might be health, that might be climate change, for example, some say that if you really care about these problems, we need to collaborate and come together.
Jason Jacobs (00:26:41):
But the worry there then is that then, like you said before, we keep plodding along because that's the way it's always been kind of thing, even if it doesn't feel good in our guts, but if we go to do what feels good in our guts, it's going to immediately put us into camps with tribalism and polarization and then nothing gets over the line. So I don't know, how do you think about that tension and how do we not just get some stuff done, but how do we get the big stuff done that we need to do?
Benji Backer (00:27:09):
Really good question. And I think it comes down to, if you're talking about collaboration and moderation or bipartisanship or whatever, there are two options of what you can pursue. One, is inaction because you just kind of go with the status quo and that has happened throughout history, for sure. However, there's a second thing that also has happened throughout history, and that's the approach of bipartisanship through the lens of, there are people on both sides representing their communities, and they're going to represent their communities, which are very different communities, to come up with a very helpful policy for whatever issue it is, or policies. That is where some of the most landmarks decisions and bills have been passed in this country. We haven't seen that in the last couple of decades, especially the last decade, but it has happened. And so I think that there's this false narrative that bipartisanship is just this lame, common ground thing that actually doesn't move the needle on anything we care about.
Benji Backer (00:28:11):
It can be, but it also can be the only way we go forward because you have everyone's viewpoint being represented. Therefore, if you're talking about climate change, which affects everyone, you do need everyone's viewpoint represented because you need the coal workers in West Virginia, or the solar panel installers in Florida, or the hydropower technicians in Washington state, or the farmers in the Midwest, all represented because it affects all of us and we're all contributing to it and all of those communities contribute to it. So that's where bipartisanship comes in and I think that that's truly the only way forward, because how else are you going to be able to get a policy or a group of policies that attack the problem, but actually are realistic because they're representing the people?
Jason Jacobs (00:28:59):
And this is a question that's going to maybe show my ignorance in terms of how to get stuff done politically, just because that I don't come from that world, as I started the discussion saying. But when we talked about the polarization and social media contributing to that and rewarding controversial voices and extreme voices and things like that, are those extreme voices, the voices that are also controlling the narrative in Washington?
Benji Backer (00:29:22):
On the policy side, no, and that's what's really good. That's the silver lining of this, is that you hear about Ted Cruz and AOC and Bernie or whatever, and honestly, I think that there are equivalents on both sides. And the people who control the narrative and the media, don't actually get stuff done. The people who get stuff done, no one's ever heard of. And that is maybe not great because it would be great to know about the people who get stuff done so that you can reward them or push them to do more. But the reality is Ted Cruz doesn't pass bills, AOC doesn't pass bills, the senators and the house members who actually do that in DC, who control the policy narrative, are not as radical, but they are held back by the radical narrative because the radical narrative does bleed into the policy conversations and you also can't move things as quickly because of those voices. So they don't control the policy narrative, but they do hold it back.
Jason Jacobs (00:30:23):
Okay. So I want to pressure test that a bit because it sounds like what you're saying is that the extreme voices aren't actually pulling the strings on policy, but it seems like there's been some troubling things happening, not just with narrative, but with policy. And you can take the recent abortion stuff coming out of the Supreme Court, and I can bring that up because I know that your views on abortion and how they're different than many of your conservative peers. I can talk about Manchin and him not supporting the climate bill, which presumably, from the cheap seats here, really hurts the cause. I can talk about some of the stuff that's been happening in places like Florida around some of the COVID policy. And again, that's subject of debate, but it's like some of this stuff seems like it's at the detriment of the collective good in a not even bipartisan way, no partisan way, just collective good as humans and also as Americans and also the good of our country, regardless of your politics, do you disagree?
Benji Backer (00:31:22):
I do disagree, especially with the examples, because I think the abortion thing was based off of a Supreme Court decision. We could talk about that all day, but those aren't divisive voices on the radical right or left determining things. Joe Manchin voting against it, he's not a radical, you can disagree with him, but there's reason-
Jason Jacobs (00:31:42):
You disagree with him, Benji?
Benji Backer (00:31:44):
No. Surprisingly to many people, I don't. If I was Joe Manchin in West Virginia, a state that has really struggled with these sorts of policies and you look at the Build Back Better bill, which doesn't have really anything to stand up for those communities in a way that actually helps, his role is to represent them and Joe Biden and Chuck Schumer and the Democrats who were putting this stuff together, didn't make an effort from the get go. And for the last two years, there have been people harassing and basically being violent towards Joe Manchin on his houseboat and in DC. And so if you don't feel represented on it and you're getting attacked on it before you even make a decision and you don't think that it's going to move the ball forward in a way that is good for the country, especially right now with energy prices, and you feel like there's a better approach, which he has proposed a lot of ideas around, but he doesn't get listened to because they're in the middle, I could see why he votes no. If I represented a different state, I might vote yes.
Benji Backer (00:33:02):
I liked a lot of aspects of the Build Back Better bill. I also thought that there was a huge lack of emphasis on everyone in red America, and that's important if you care about climate change, you need those communities there too. They didn't include anything about the realities that a lot of these states are going to face. And you can't just forget about half the country when you're talking about climate change and that's what they did. And so I believe that next Congress will be the first Congress in my lifetime where a bipartisan climate bill and package similar to the size of Build Back Better, but actually comprehensive and inclusive of conservative communities, is passed. I do think that's going to happen. And I think that it's going to be really exciting. I think a lot of people who are frustrated now will be a lot less frustrated when that happens. However, Joe Manchin, it makes sense for what the situation is. I'm not a huge fan of it, but I also understand it.
Jason Jacobs (00:34:10):
Now this is over my pay grade, but do you have a clear view on that bill that you're surmising will pass in the next Congress, how will it be different than the bill that Manchin just declined to support? What will not be in it and what will be in it that's different than today?
Benji Backer (00:34:33):
Yeah. I think there's a significant overlap with a lot of the ideas, but it also will, instead of some of the more progressive left policies, I don't know exactly which ones I can't have a crystal ball on that, but there are specific mandates and regulations and things that I think might fall off, but what replaces that is a bunch of ideas for pro-climate action from more conservative communities. So more about farming and agriculture, more around climate resilience, more about natural climate solutions, which mean planting trees, restoring wetlands, doing things naturally to lower pollution, more about incentivizing innovation.
Benji Backer (00:35:21):
And I think that there is a lot of opportunity to replace some of the more progressive, farther left stuff from it, with those sorts of ideas. And then it becomes a package that is really representative of where we can head as a country on climate. And I really hope Democrats, and I think there are some really good ones who will work with Republicans on that. Obviously Manchin will want to do that, but Chris Coons and Sheldon Whitehouse and Senator Heinrich from New Mexico, these are people who have really extended their arms to conservatives on climate in the past. And I think there's a big opportunity to come to that agreement that I was just talking about a little bit more generally, but coming to that on a policy level
Jason Jacobs (00:36:06):
And going back to something we talked about earlier, how climate is not in the conservative box, it seems, and I'm no history buff, although I aspire to continue to learn more in that regard, but that at one time conservation, for example, was core to Republican Party ideals. Why and when and how did that become less in the box over time?
Benji Backer (00:36:36):
Yeah. And I think it's really important for climate activists who tend to be on the left or in the middle who are just frustrated about this, to understand why this happened, because it also helps us figure out how to get out of it. Basically in the early 2000s climate change had been very recently a bipartisan thing, you had George H. W. Bush leading on the issue, signing climate treaties and stuff, and it was not a controversial issue. And Republicans had been leading on the Clean Air Act and stuff like that, so like you said, it has been a Republican position in the past. In the early two 2000s, Al Gore became the face of climate. And not that he's as polarizing as Donald Trump, but Republicans didn't like Al Gore. And imagine if Donald Trump was the face of some issue that you wanted to get bipartisan support on, it wouldn't happen. Democrats would not want to engage in that and they'd want to run the other way. That's exactly what happened with Al Gore.
Benji Backer (00:37:38):
And not only with Al Gore just having that visceral reaction for people who saw him as the same way, but maybe in a toned down way, as Democrats see Donald Trump, but the policies that were being promoted had zero regard for the communities that are usually conservative voters. So not only did the policies not reflect their values or their situations, but the figurehead was somebody that they really didn't like. And I still see the first problem of that, where they're not being represented in the policy. I still see that being the problem today. And I don't think that climate activists on the left, who I like a lot and work with as much as possible, I don't think they're willing to see that. And now we're two decades past that moment.
Benji Backer (00:38:35):
And this recent thing with Senator Manchin that we're talking about, it's the same damn problem, where I've traveled across the country in 40 states trying to see these different viewpoints and everyone, even in Democratic areas, feels left behind by the national climate policy dialogue, because they don't feel involved, they don't feel like their communities are involved and they feel like basically people are making decisions on behalf of the quote, unquote, "Climate," that are going to negatively impact their lives. And why wouldn't they feel that way when no one is really trying to understand what they think, how they think, and how to represent their own communities. We're leaving all them behind, the climate change community has done it for two decades now. And of course, it's not going to become bipartisan when that's the case, and obviously my goal is to help change that.
Jason Jacobs (00:39:33):
I can understand the left behind in terms of the visceral reaction and maybe identifying with one representative more than another. When it comes to tactics and actual policy, any examples that might be illustrative for me and for listeners in terms of what things were included that shouldn't have been, or what things weren't included that should have been, just to help explain and bring home more the point you're making, which I think is a really important one?
Benji Backer (00:40:06):
Yeah. I think the policies obviously do, but I'll start with the narrative because the narrative is included in the policies. There's a really big out of touchness, if that's a term I can use, that the climate community has had with regular American people that aren't in New York, DC, Boston, Seattle-type places. And that is just expecting that people are just going to be able to implement these climate decisions in their day-to-day lives. You have, still today, Pete Buttigieg saying, "Well, you could just drive an electric vehicle," in the middle of gas prices being high and claiming that's the way that people are going to save money. There are Americans in places where A, they can't have an electric vehicle because the infrastructure isn't there, and there isn't maybe an electric vehicle yet that can do what they need to do when it comes to hauling stuff and farming materials and everything like that. But also they don't have the money to do that.
Benji Backer (00:41:11):
And so when you hear that, which Pete Buttigieg is well intentioned about his climate stuff, I'm not saying he's not, but when you hear that, you think, "Wow, this person has zero idea what I'm going through." And you see that when it comes with energy, "Oh, we should just put these wide-sweeping mandates and incentives and all that stuff for solar and wind." If you don't have solar and wind in your community, and you're relying on a different energy source, even if it's a clean energy source, like hydropower or something, you're like, "Whoa, wait a second. You're going to provide all these incentives for all these energy sources that are not going to even be remotely close to my life, or you're going to force that down my throats when I have a job in a different industry." And it's just, there are so many examples of it.
Benji Backer (00:41:58):
In Washington state, the gas tax is higher than any other state other than California. And if you live in Eastern Washington, where it's more of a conservative community, you are frustrated by the gas tax being high in the name of climate, because you are trying to put food on your tables and there's really no other way to get around at this point for them. And you're like, "Wait a second, so climate change equals me paying more money, climate change equals me paying more money while other people are saving money, or I'm supposed to buy something that I can't afford." It's just not helpful for these people to see that and then try to pretend that they should be engaging when they haven't been represented. And I think that those examples are just a few of probably thousands that are really holding us back from including those people in conversation.
Jason Jacobs (00:42:51):
Now I'm going to try to dig in on this one caveat, is that I live in Boston, I've lived here more or less my whole life, I went to a small liberal arts college, I drive a Tesla. I have largely, much like people in some parts of the country might not understand me, I have similar gaps and blind spots. Now I'm taking steps to try to better understand and make sure that I can factor those perspectives in. I just wanted to flag that it is not as native to me the same way as it might not be as native to them, given that we come from such different world.
Benji Backer (00:43:30):
Well, let me just say something on that. I think the biggest thing, and I know I'm hammering on urban climate activists, I'm one of those now, so I'm not saying that's a problem, but I grew up in Wisconsin and I've seen kind of both sides of this. And I truly think when it boils down to climate or American politics, the problem with all of it is that there is this urban, rural divide, where rural Americans aren't trying to understand urban ones and where urban Americans aren't trying to understand rural ones. And I'm not saying that there's some perfect solution to that or that you can fully understand it, but there's this visceral hatred for each other, or there's this coastal elitism or urban elitism where it's, "Oh, I can't imagine why anyone would live out there. It's flat," or, "They're so uneducated and so dumb." I hear these things all the time when I'm in Seattle, but I also, when I go to those places, they hate the people in the cities because they have all these stereotypes and assumptions of them, and this is where the hangup is.
Jason Jacobs (00:44:36):
Yeah. So what I want to try to poke on, is let's say there's a coal mining community and it's been a coal mining community for generations. And it's the source of livelihood for that community or a big one and a big source of jobs. And then all the shops and grocery stores and tailors and everything else that caters to that community. Now, their incentive from a self-interest standpoint is to continue to feed their families, duh, right? That's their livelihood, that's the community's livelihood. And then the elected officials in that community, it's their duty to represent their constituents, which are the people that I just described. At the same time, our planet has a carbon problem, GHGs, all the shit we pumped up into the atmosphere that's going to be there for hundreds of years and wildfires and droughts and changing precipitation patterns and rising sea levels and increasing extreme weather events and increasing the intensity of those events and food scarcity and force migration, not by governments, but by the fact that your fucking house is underwater.
Jason Jacobs (00:45:41):
And so on some of this stuff, the self-interest, either of the people or certainly of the companies that employ those people, the big oil, for example, is to drag their feet, is to mislead, is to live off the fat of the land, if you will, for as long as they can. And the slower the transition takes, the longer they can maintain their perch and do what they've always done, but at the same time, we're in a fucking pickle. And so how do you balance those things, given that hard decisions need to be made and that there's no path forward that's a clean one?
Benji Backer (00:46:16):
Totally. It's a really important question. And I think the best way to do it is something that I've been seeing more and more, which is really exciting, and that is there are these communities, coal, oil, and gas, whatever, that are transitioning. And instead of saying like, "Oh, you need to do this a different way," or, "You need to get a new job," or, "You need to just shut down your plant," or whatever. It's figuring out, okay, let's get creative. Let's figure out a way to find a new way to use coal or to do oil and gas more cleanly or whatever the technology and the innovation is so that people don't feel like you're coming for them, but you're also being proactive on moving forward for the climate.
Benji Backer (00:47:00):
And I know that's not as radical or as fast as people want, but the reality is these communities exist, the energy sources exist, we still use these energy sources, so we've got to figure out how we can work with those communities while also holding them accountable. Don't get me wrong, you've got to do both. But let's hold them accountable and work with them at the same time to come up with solutions that can fit their own communities. And that will be individual case by case, but you've got so many examples of where that has worked, and that's the approach that I think has got to be taken.
Jason Jacobs (00:47:33):
Okay. So the response to that, I think, depends on how much of an emergency you think we're in and how aggressively we need to move to avoid growing catastrophes and how bad those catastrophes will actually be and how widespread, so maybe we should, we should start there. Scientists say that, "Oh, things are bad. That's freaking people out." Well, it's like Crocodile Dundee, "You think that's a knife? This is a knife." You haven't seen anything close to bad yet, this is just the tip of the iceberg. And they also say that so much of the future, even worse bad, is baked in no matter what we do. If we stopped emitting today, cold turkey, which we would never do for all the reasons that you just mentioned and a bunch more, then we're still fucked.
Jason Jacobs (00:48:19):
If you look forward in that any of this pussy footing around with increment this and increment that, we need way, but... It's the equivalent of if you have a startup, and you need to be growing by... You need to be tripling, quadrupling, whatever, quarter over quarter, or month over month to get to where you need to go. And you're like doing small experiments to figure out how to eek out another percentage of growth. It's like, no, you need to stop doing those small experiments and you need to make bolder bets. Well, I hear from the experts, and I guess experts a loaded word these days, but that we need to be doing the real bold things. And what you're talking about is, well, the problem is people are doing two bold a things and we should be taking more baby steps, that's what I'm hearing. And to me, I'll be honest, that doesn't sound like climate is your top cause like you said earlier in the show.
Benji Backer (00:49:13):
Well, if the bold stuff is working, then why haven't we gotten action in two decades? The bold stuff, what people think of as bold, never gets passed, never gets done because it's too much too quickly, and you're putting things that aren't realistic in front of decision makers or whoever it is and people aren't going to get that done. So if you truly-
Jason Jacobs (00:49:35):
But the realistic stuff that you just told me is not actually going to address the problem. And so we're in a real pickle because the stuff that's going to actually address the problem isn't going to get passed and the stuff that's going to get passed, isn't going to address the problem.
Benji Backer (00:49:46):
I completely disagree because I've spent a lot of time with IPCC scientists to try to understand, in person clean-
Jason Jacobs (00:49:53):
Clean coal is the answer? I think that's what I just heard from you. Clean coal, putting scrubbers on the plants that are producing fossil fuels.
Benji Backer (00:50:02):
Well, you're putting words in my mouth at this point, because that is not what I said at all, that's not what I said at all. So I've spent a lot of time with IPCC scientists trying to understand where we can take action. And we are where we are, we cannot change where we are, just like anything in your personal life that's shitty, you are where you are. The best thing you can do is to start taking steps. The worst thing you can do is try to do a Hail Mary and not get anywhere. So if you truly care about climate, that's the approach you need to do, because you can scale up steps, you can take steps and then you can take more steps and you can take big steps, but every step helps you get to bigger steps. And that's the approach that we're trying to take because the other approach hasn't worked. And the science says that we can take those sorts of steps. And we have about three decades to try to figure out what those steps are and actually have them implemented, but we got to start now.
Benji Backer (00:51:01):
And there's no way that we can just wait for some Hail Mary, that's the stupidest thing that we could do for our climate as a country, because we are only part of the problem. And so the stupidest thing we could do as only part of the problem is to expect that we are going to alone solve the problem with things that aren't going to actually get done. And in a timeframe where we can do not small incremental things that are just feel good things, but real concrete steps that matter. And you're seeing that approach be the priority for a lot of the scientists who are saying that in their reports, you're seeing that in the global conversation around climate change, and there's a lot of people in this country that have not, on the climate side, who have not realized that's the approach that we need.
Jason Jacobs (00:51:50):
I understand that asking people to change their behavior and willingly pay more for less, for example, is not viable. I understand that people don't, just human nature, don't like being told what to do. From our parents growing up, to the government. You want to be your own person, you want to be free. I want to be my own person, I want to be free. At the same time, I think, I agree with you that people don't like being told what to do, but certain kinds of things, if we don't... Okay, here's an example growing up, if I had a drink, out in a bar and someone was smoking in the bar, I might be inclined to bum a cigarette. I was never a smoker, but I would smoke because the cigarettes were in the bars.
Jason Jacobs (00:52:32):
As soon as they outlawed cigarettes in bars, I never had another fucking cigarette. And so there's just some things where actually putting some parameters around it from the government will help us get to where we need to go. How do you think about the role of government? And I guess, do you worry that, if you look at the last couple hundred years, GDP growth quarter over quarter, managing to the public markets, having to answer, to showing continued growth, continued growth, and then just being able to dump as much pollution into the sky as we want, without any consequences of that. Without the government setting some parameters, do you actually trust that companies... Why would companies stop polluting into the sky for example if the government didn't tell them that they can't anymore?
Benji Backer (00:53:20):
So first of all, companies would stop doing that. If their employees were demanding it, if consumers were demanding it or, and or, if the government had the parameters, I think we got to tackle all three-
Jason Jacobs (00:53:31):
But the employees would never demand it, because the employees are more concerned about, again, their community, their livelihood, where this is a collective good problem. Right?
Benji Backer (00:53:39):
You're not seeing that. In the United States specifically, you're seeing tons of companies try to figure out climate action goals and actually implement them because their employees and consumers are demanding it, not because there's some huge government mandate. Now that's not me saying that there shouldn't be-
Jason Jacobs (00:53:54):
In red communities as well?
Benji Backer (00:53:56):
Very much so. Yeah, absolutely. That's why three of the top five solar states in the US are Republican and four of the top five wind states are Republican. So we got to stop pretending that this isn't happening in the private sector, because it is, and it's because of consumers and employees. And that doesn't mean that A, that means you should ramp up that stuff, but B, you can definitely have government on top of that, and we're advocating for government policies. So I do think that there's a really important role to play, but you also have to be realistic with the fact that, to your point, there are a lot of developing countries in the world that are trying to make ends meet and they're going to use energy sources right now that are going to pollute. And we have a job to do as the United States, and as other developing countries, to answer your question about, can we just keep growing economically.
Benji Backer (00:54:52):
The only way you can find cheaper alternatives and find pro-climate energy sources and give those to developing countries or implement them in your own developed country, is to have the money to invest in that. And on a smaller scale, there is a tribe that's right near Seattle that I went to go see, and they are one of the most financially sound tribes in the entire country. And they have done so much to restore the salmon population because they have the money to invest in that.
Benji Backer (00:55:25):
You have to have money to invest in the solutions, or you're not going to get the solutions. So you have to grow the economy and you can do that smartly. And I think that's what we're getting closer and closer to, which is why the United States is decreasing emissions, not at the level we need to, but pretty quickly, and we got to ramp that up. But it's because of all the action that's been happening in the private sector, but that's been incentivized by money that's able to be implemented into these ideas and actually scale them, which is why there's so many great startups out there. You need to have the money.
Jason Jacobs (00:56:02):
So what does that mean as it relates to consumption abundance? The fact that if you can afford it, there should be no reason that you don't fly wherever you want, as an example, historically. If you can afford it, there should be no reason why you shouldn't go out and eat. Maybe your doctor will tell you that you shouldn't be eating steak dinners every night, but you're certainly not thinking about it. from an emissions angle. Do we need to change that as a society at the consumer level? How-
Benji Backer (00:56:31):
I do think so. I used to eat a lot of red meat, I don't eat any red meat anymore. I've done a lot of things in my personal life to change that. But the thing is that you've got to equip people with the resources to feel like they can do those things without it impacting their lives super negatively. Do I miss eating steaks? Sure. But it hasn't severely impacted my life, and I think that's obviously just one example. You are not going to be able to tell people to not go see their family for Thanksgiving or whatever, and fly. So I think for those things that you can't change the behavior on, or it's not pro-humanity to do, we got to find better solutions. So if it's something like that, as an example, better aviation fuel, more technology around airplanes being as clean as they can be and continuing the evolution there. While also, at the consumer level with smaller decisions, like habits around driving and habits around eating and different things that you do at your house, equipping people.
Benji Backer (00:57:32):
Because if people knew that they could save money by using their appliances at a certain time because the energy prices are lower and maybe it's powered by solar because it's a daytime activity, they would do it. But we got to equip them with the knowledge to do that. So I think there's a huge opportunity with that as well. And again, that's not dismissing government action, but I do think behaviorally we have to change, but people only do that if it either saves them money and, or they are able to do it without completely changing the way they live.
Jason Jacobs (00:58:06):
And much like you were talking about how a segment of the population feels forgotten. I feel like there's another segment of the population that feels forgotten and it's not just the red state people or the coal mining communities or things or farming or things like that. But it's also some of the inner city communities, people of color, where they feel like, for example, when the plants go up to power the lifestyles of everyone else, the pollution and the toxic chemicals getting dumped and the smog and things like that, they're the ones that live within a few miles of the plant, they're the ones that feel the front of that, but then they're not capitalizing on any of the upside of the dollars that are then flowing into the space. And that's one reason why you hear some people, primarily on the left, who say that you can't unbundle the issues of decarbonization and social and climate justice. I'm really curious to get your views on that, especially given what we talked about before, about some of the people in red communities that feel forgotten.
Benji Backer (00:59:07):
Absolutely. Well, first of all, I'll just start out by saying, I do believe that environmental justice has to be a big part of the conversation.
Jason Jacobs (00:59:15):
Is that in the box on the right?
Benji Backer (00:59:17):
Definitely not, but I'm working on it. But I think one of the things that can help with that is also putting environmental justice, not just being inner city communities, but adding, obviously that is really important and I'll touch on that in a second, but also putting the other low-income Americans who are more in rural areas who are just trying to survive, who are really struggling, and they are also negatively impacted by climate change more than anybody else, putting them in the environmental justice conversation. I think there's a give and take there. I think conservatives would be way more open to environmental justice if some of the really marginalized communities in their communities were represented. Same with liberals, I think that there's a huge opportunity there.
Benji Backer (01:00:03):
But let's talk about inner cities because that's where the conversation has been around environmental justice, and understandably so, I just think it can be broader, but it is very obvious that there is a disproportionate impact. And I think my opinion of what we can do to do that is obviously increase the amount of voices in the conversation from those communities. Obviously equip them with more tools and more cost effective ways to implement things and also stop the way that companies have been able to get away with just screwing up their neighborhoods and that sort of thing. But also the most important thing, for the long-term, is to make these solutions cost effective and affordable so that no matter if you are in low-income or high-income, if you're looking at making a decision in your life, whether that's buying a car, or just putting food on your table, that it's not just for the rich people.
Benji Backer (01:00:58):
And I think obviously we're getting there, but right now a lot of people can't afford the clean solutions. And we got to get to a point where it's ingrained in people's lives enough where they don't notice that they're being pro-climate, it's just part of their lives and it's cost effective and might even save money. And that will help these communities as well, not have to deal with such an expensive life that people are trying to convey when it comes to climate, which, again, is understandable, and the technology isn't there yet, but we got to get there.
Jason Jacobs (01:01:30):
So when it comes to your pursuits, either from an individual standpoint or through your work with ACC, looking ahead, say over the next 12 or 24 months, what are your key priorities? What are you hoping to get done?
Benji Backer (01:01:44):
Well, first of all, I think something that's really important to say is that I've been fairly critical of the left-of-center space on this podcast. If I had a right-of-center podcast about conservatism, I'd be just as critical of the conservative side. And I think I'm at this place now where I've seen a lot, and I know a lot about what I've seen, and I want to be as truthful as I can, and I want to hold people accountable, but I also want to expose the different beliefs that are out there that are really important to solving this mission. And the reason I bring that up is, we're as an organization, we're going to be focusing on releasing an alternative climate framework that's not the Green New Deal, called the Climate Commitment. And it is really focused on solving climate change through six key pillars that have policy solutions at the federal level, but also can be applied to the state level or even inside of a company.
Benji Backer (01:02:45):
And I think redefining this issue to be more inclusive of, obviously low-income Americans, and like I said, from inner city or in rural communities, but to be more inclusive of actually what is actionable, and then rallying people around those ideas so that our politicians can hear from them and realize that they need to raise the prioritization on the common sense reforms. I hope that builds a bridge so that, like I said, the goal is to have a really awesome climate package introduced and passed and implemented sometime early or mid-next year. Congress is way slower than it should be, but getting that done is crucial. So on top of that, using my voice to accelerate that in whatever way I can, as the president of the organization, and also as hopefully somebody who is able to use thought leadership more and more on these issues.
Jason Jacobs (01:03:42):
So Benji, from a tactical standpoint, given the ambitious plan that you mentioned and bringing that to bear, what does that mean in terms of how you spend your time and how the organization spends its time and what types of resources do you bring to bear and mobilize in terms of trying to most effectively bring that plan to bear?
Benji Backer (01:04:03):
Yeah. I think really what, what our bread and butter is trying to mobilize young people who feel passionately about climate, but do want this holistic approach of how to solve it and making their voices really heard. So emphasizing social media, but through tagging elected officials, that's really crucial, op-eds, events, direct meetings. Really ramping up the pressure in a respectful, but ambitious way with elected officials, that's something we're going to spend a lot of time on as an organization, as well, as using key leaders outside of politics as well, who have big followings and have influence to socialize these ideas and push for them. That's really crucial because you've got to have a public push in a world where there's so many competing issues and climate's not often at the top of the list even for left-of-center. So you've got to push the prioritization through grassroots mobilization, that's our focus.
Benji Backer (01:05:02):
And then my personal focus, outside of managing that, is to ramp up my dialogue within the media and in my personal life, social media, which I don't spend a lot of time on actually, trying to really ramp up my voice and trying to talk as much as I can with leaders in Congress directly who I have built relationships with, and now can try to capitalize on that by using my personal voice as well as the organization's.
Jason Jacobs (01:05:35):
And if it's okay, I just have a quick punch list of hot button topics I'd love for you to just give maybe a few sentence reaction to each one of them. I'll start with offsets and carbon markets?
Benji Backer (01:05:44):
Failing, but a very important part of the future.
Jason Jacobs (01:05:48):
Nuclear?
Benji Backer (01:05:49):
Love it. And it's really important, we can't solve climate without it. And the technology needs to get better to make it more affordable, but we need it.
Jason Jacobs (01:05:57):
Direct air capture, carbon removal?
Benji Backer (01:06:00):
Also think we need that, not there yet. And I hope it gets there.
Jason Jacobs (01:06:04):
Fusion?
Benji Backer (01:06:06):
Old school, needed in the short term, we can move past it.
Jason Jacobs (01:06:10):
Geoengineering research?
Benji Backer (01:06:12):
Also very needed. I think it's example of another opportunity that we don't know if it'll be scalable yet, and we need to figure that out because it could be super helpful.
Jason Jacobs (01:06:21):
Price on carbon. Will it come and should it come?
Benji Backer (01:06:24):
I think it can come after we take some substantial steps and it's an important part of this progress that America can make.
Jason Jacobs (01:06:33):
Natural gas, bridge fuel, or part of the long term portfolio?
Benji Backer (01:06:37):
Bridge fuel, but I don't know what long term means. It could be a bridge fuel for a longer term to help us get to these sources, but I don't know what that timeline looks like. I don't think we should be super anti- natural gas until we have a cost effective alternative in these communities. Obviously I don't want it to be the forever fuel.
Jason Jacobs (01:06:58):
And we talked about the roles of fossil fuel. What about the role of big oil? What percentage of the oil giants do you think will be the giants of powering the clean energy on the other side of the transition?
Benji Backer (01:07:08):
I think a pretty significant percentage. I would love to see Shell and BP ramp up more clean energy investment, more so than they even are and Chevron and some of the others, we got to have their investment. They've got money, they've got technical expertise that we need, and I think it's important.
Jason Jacobs (01:07:26):
And last question, if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing to most accelerate our progress in the right kinds of ways, what would you change and how would you change it?
Benji Backer (01:07:34):
This is a real magic wand, so I'm going to say something that is incredibly magic. I know that this isn't realistic, I would build way more nuclear plants, especially in the United States and in China as well. But obviously right now that with the current technology. It's cost effective and a little outdated, but I've got a magic wand so I can make it happen.
Jason Jacobs (01:07:52):
Well, gosh, we could spend a whole episode just on that. And what about for listeners? Anyone inspired by your work, how can we be helpful to you and who do you want to hear from if anyone?
Benji Backer (01:08:01):
Well, I think at the end of the day, I'm willing to talk to and work with anyone on this issue. I think some people might think I don't have a ambitious enough look at this, I'm just trying to have a pragmatic look. And so I'm willing to talk with anyone and also team up with anyone. I think there's a lot of overlap in this space that needs to be explored and the more that we can work together, the faster this stuff's going to happen. This is my number one issue. And I think that the differences and maybe ambition don't necessarily hold us back from working together on a lot of overlapped issues. So if you're part of an organization or policy leader in government or wherever you're from, or just a regular everyday citizen, I think there's a lot we can do together.
Benji Backer (01:08:40):
The worst thing we can do is let perfect be the enemy of the good. I think we've done that too many times in recent history on a bunch of issues, including climate, and so I'd be happy to be partners with absolutely anybody, see anything in person, tour anything, publicly team up with anyone, even if it's not popular on my side or on the other side or whatever, because I want to get shit done on climate. And sometimes it isn't always popular, but that's the goal and I'm willing to do anything it takes.
Jason Jacobs (01:09:07):
Anything I didn't ask that I should have or any parting words beyond the great parting words that you just said?
Benji Backer (01:09:13):
I would just say inspire young people, inspire and give hope because we can't instill fear to the point where young people don't want to take action or think it's too late so they're just going to tap out. We got to have more young advocates. We got to give them some hope, we got to give them some opportunities for what they can do to make a difference on this, whether that's politics, business, whatever, because we're the generation that needs to act. And if we're tapped out, because we think there's no chance, then there definitely is no chance.
Jason Jacobs (01:09:40):
Awesome. Well Benji, thanks so much.
Benji Backer (01:09:42):
Thank you. And thanks for having me on, fascinating conversation.
Jason Jacobs (01:09:45):
Hey everyone, Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at myclimatejourney.co. Note, that is .co, not .com. Someday we'll get the .com, but right now, .co. You can also find me on Twitter @jjacobs22, where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The lawyers made me say that. Thank you.