Startup Series: Air Company
Today's guest is Greg Constantine, Co-Founder & CEO of Air Company.
Air Company is a technology, engineering, and design company. The startup has invented a patented carbon conversion technology that transforms carbon dioxide (CO2) into impurity-free, carbon-negative alcohols, fuels, and perfumes. Air Company seeks to demonstrate to the world the limitless potential of carbon technology solutions.
Greg is recognized as a world-leading entrepreneur in business and marketing with a spirit of innovation, landing him on the Forbes' 2017 30 Under 30 list. Leading all company strategy, operations, and innovation, including marketing and product design, Constantine has accelerated Air Company from an early-stage startup concept into one of the world's most innovative companies. He has led the startup to adopt numerous profitable applications of its technology, including fragrances, spirits, and rocket and aviation fuels. Greg brings expertise in the arts with an undergraduate degree from The University of Sydney and a wealth of business acumen from the Executive program at Harvard Business School.
In this episode, Greg and I explore Air Company's proprietary technology, Greg's career path leading up to Air Company, and the startup's products, from Vodka to perfume. We also discuss the future marketplace for carbon-converted products, the direct air capture ecosystem, and why all CO2 is not created equal. Greg is a great guest, and it was exciting to learn more about Air Company.
Enjoy the show!
You can find me on twitter @jjacobs22 or @mcjpod and email at info@mcjcollective.com, where I encourage you to share your feedback on episodes and suggestions for future topics or guests.
Episode recorded February 17th, 2022
In Today's episode, we cover:
Greg's elevator pitch for Air Company
Greg's climate journey and the story of Air Company's founding
Air Company's technology and their products, from perfume to alcohol to alternative fuels
The existing process for creating alcohol & why it's a problem for the climate
The different types of CO2 and why they aren't all created equal
The direct air capture ecosystem and the barriers to successfully reducing the existing emissions in the atmosphere
The future marketplace for converted carbon products
Key drivers and barriers to scaling Air Company
The cost, quality, and consistency of Air Company's products
Greg's thoughts around non-dilutive funding and grants
Air Company's customer base and what motivates them to choose Air Company's products even though they may be more expensive
The role policy plays at Air Company
Links to topics discussed in this episode:
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Jason Jacobs: Hey everyone, Jason here. I am the My Climate Journey show host. Before we get going, I wanted to take a minute and tell you about the My Climate Journey, or MCJ as we call it, membership option. Membership came to be because there were a bunch of people that were listening to the show that weren't just looking for education but they were longing for a peer group as well. So we set up a slack community for those people that's now mushroomed into more than 1,300 members. There is an application to become a member. It's not an exclusive thing. There's four criteria we screen for. Determination to tackle the problem of climate change, ambition to work on the most impactful solution areas, optimism that we can make a dent and we're not wasting our time for trying, and a collaborate spirit. Beyond that, the more diversity the better.
There's a bunch of great things that have come out of that community, a number of founding teams that have met in there, a number of non-profits that have been established, a bunch of hiring that's been done, a bunch of companies that have raised capital in there, a bunch of funds that have gotten limited partners or investors for their funds in there, as well as a bunch of events and programming by members and for members, and some open-source projects that are getting actively worked on that hatched in there as well. At any rate, if you want to learn more, you can go to MyClimateJourney.co, the website, and click the Become a Member tab at the top. Enjoy the show.
Hello everyone. This is Jason Jacobs, and welcome to My Climate Journey. This show follows my journey to interview a wide range of guests to better understand and make sense of the formidable problem of climate change and try to figure out how people like you and I can help.
Today's guest is Greg Constantine, co-founder and CEO of Air Company. Air Company seeks to work with nature rather than against it. They've developed technologies that mimic photosynthesis to utilize as much CO2 as possible and convert it into valuable products such as perfumes, vodkas, hand sanitizers, sugar, jet fuels, and more.
I was excited for this one because there's way too much carbon up in the atmosphere and we're gonna have to remove a bunch of it, but the open question is, who pays for it? What's the market for it? So converting carbon to valuable products is a really interesting angle to explore. And with Air Company, they found a way to do it such that they're starting in markets where the quantities can be smaller and the value can be higher, like perfume, but ultimately hope to move into more carbon-intensive industries like industrial products.
We have a fascinating discussion in this episode about the origin story for the company, how the technology came about, how they made the decision to try to commercialize it, what some of the challenges were that they encountered in the early days, their initial beachhead market, some of the key differentiators relative to existing solutions, where they are in their adoption curve, what types of customers make a good profile, what types of capital they've used to scale, and also just what barriers exist in general in terms of what it will take to remove this carbon and to convert carbon to valuable products at enough scale to matter, and what levers we can pull, and in which ways, to help us go faster. This was a really great one, and I hope you enjoy it.
Greg, welcome to the show.
Greg Constantine: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
Jason Jacobs: Thanks for coming. What a fascinating story Air Company is from a distance, so super excited that you agreed to come on and that we can spend a good chunk of time here digging into it, because from the cheap seats it's pretty awesome.
Greg Constantine: I appreciate that. Yeah, look, hopefully we can kind of give a bit of insight into what we do and how we do it.
Jason Jacobs: Sounds great. Well, for starts, what is it? How do you describe Air Company when people ask? You know, we just entered the elevator and, and, and pushed a button five floors up, so what do you do?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, so Air Company is a... It's an engineering and carbon technology company. We're based in New York. And we take carbon dioxide, we turn it into carbon-negative alcohols and fuels. We applicate the alcohols that we... That we make to the consumer industries in the short term with a goal of transitioning that into those industrial industries in the long term so we be a provider of these eventual fuels.
Jason Jacobs: Got it. And how did all this come about? And I... And I ask that twofold. One, what... the origin story for the company, but two, the origin story for you caring about this stuff and doing this kind of work.
Greg Constantine: Yeah. Well, I guess, as I had... As you can probably gather from the sound of my voice and as I kind of mentioned offline just before, I'm from Australia originally. So growing up in Australia, which is a... This beautiful island surrounded by nature, to then having moved to, to New York, another island not necessarily as naturist as what Australia is, over the course of spending time there I really became acutely aware to my surroundings and that lack of environment around me as well, and I would say that that, in combination with the role that I was working in at that point in time which is for one of the biggest alcohol companies in the world, I started to really become in tune with how detrimental a lot of industries are to our planet, but also a sense of lacking of that environmental and, and naturist background of Australia.
And then when I met my now co-founder and business partner, Stafford, who's been a career technologist and en... And environmentalist, it really opened my eyes to the world of carbon technology and the world of, you know, technology and innovation as a whole and how you can use technology to help not only innovate inside change but hopefully create products that are far better for the planet than their predecessors, and processes, you know, through technology like ours that are far better for the planet than their predecessors as well. So yeah, we went on almost five years ago now to, to start Air Company with that sole mission of, you know, how do we use technology and merge it with... Merge these innovative ideas with creativity to help the planet and to help humanity kind of move forward.
Jason Jacobs: And so how do those dots connect for you? Because it... I mean, it sounds like Air Company is a pretty technical endeavor, and so did you uncover technology and start thinking about the best ways to apply it? Was it that problem that you really anchored on first? How did you kind of cross that chasm from longing to do something more purposeful to doing what you're doing now?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, great question. Yeah, so for myself it was really around solving a problem. And when I met Staff, Staff got his PhD from Yale in chemistry and physics and is really kind of like the scientific and technical brains behind what we do. When we had met and I was, you know, really chatting with him about, you know, some of the things that I wanted to go out and do from a purpose-driven sense and from a product sense and from a business sense and, you know, Staff was working on, you know, a variety of technologies, one of those conceptual technologies being the... you know, being the technology that we... That we have kind of commercialized to date was you know, how do we bring those two variant skillsets together and really use a combination of you know, my background and his background to try to bring some of these things to life?
Because we know that with technologies like what we've developed now at Air Company that... Through his background that if we were to bring that together with, you know, some of the innovative principles that, that I had in my arsenal, I would say, and some of the creative elements... If we were to bring those two things together, hopefully those skillsets could be complimentary, and hopefully that we're able to bring some of these technologies to life and show the world that it's actually possible.
Jason Jacobs: So was it that Staff was working on some things in the lab and they were showing some promise and then you got together with him and decided you were gonna take a run at, at commercializing them? I don't... Feel like I'm putting words in your mouth.
Greg Constantine: Yeah, you're kind of there. It's, you know, Staff and... During his PhD was working on some of these elements in there, and it was really around, okay, if we've got a basis for it, like, you know, one of the real applications for a technology like this, how can we commercialize it? Does it make sense? Does it not make sense? Is there a market for it? Would people even want it? Can we even do it? Is it even possible?
These are all kind of the questions that, you know, that Staff and I were, were asking ourselves and Staff was asking me at the point in time, and, you know, after a lot of deliberation and kind of time spent on it, we kind of got together and said, like, we think it's possible. We think there will be a market for these types of products and these technologies in the future, and if we are successful at commercializing a technology like this or actually bringing it to life, we think it could be transformative. So let's go out and try.
Jason Jacobs: And maybe take a crack at explaining the technology to a layman like me?
Greg Constantine: Sure. Yep. So we take carbon dioxide, which is... As you know, is the most abundant greenhouse gas on planet Earth causing climate change. We combine it with hydrogen. The hydrogen we create ourselves on-site via a process known as electrolysis. When we combine the CO2 and the hydrogen together inside our reactors, our carbon conversion reactors, the reaction that it creates when it hits our catalyst, which is a proprietary piece of material that we've created... The reaction that it creates creates a mixture of alcohols and water. All this entire process is run on renewable power. When that mixture of alcohols and water comes out of our system, we then separate the alcohols and the water out, We recycle the water back into our process, and we take that alcohol that we use... That we make and we apply it to an array of different industries.
Now, one of the types of alcohols that we create is a type of alcohol called ethanol. That ethanol that we create is of a very high purity and easily purifiable as well, so the reason why we've concerted our efforts, I would say, to the consumer industries in the short-term is because it tends itself to the consumer industries because of the purity of the product. On top of that, industries like the beverage industry and the fragrance industry are where the volumes of ethanol needed are relatively low but the value of the product is relatively high. So for an early stage company like ourselves, when you're cost to produce is quite high, you're able to enter into these kind of markets and actually sell a commercialized product that helps generate revenue as you scale, and act as R&D for your technology as well.
Jason Jacobs: And for these initial target markets that you mentioned, how are they getting the, the alcohol today, and what is the pitch to them on why this is a more compelling way to do so?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, another good questions. So, you know, traditional beverage industries, like a bottle of vodka, you will ferment corn or grain or potato and, and, you know, and in that fermentation process you'll create a mash of alcohol similar to a mash that we get. But in order to irrigate and, and farm all of that grain, you obviously need land and the irrigation for it, and the power, and the gasoline, so it's a hugely detrimental process to our planet. And when you kind of talk about the circular nature of the learnings or the drawstring, you know, I was working for, for Diageo, which is obviously an alcohol company that's creating their alcohols originally via these methods, so when you're going out and exploring kind of the methods of manufacturing they work there, you're really seeing how much land is being used and how much infrastructure is being built, and how detrimental that is to our planet.
So when you compare that to ours where our first facility is a 2,500-square-foot space in Brooklyn that bypasses the entire fermentation process, it makes the ethanol on-site in a 500-square-foot room within that facility, you can see some of the disparities from, from a land perspective alone. So what's interesting to these big companies, to kind of directly answer your question, is not only the, the huge disparity on the carbon footprint, right? We're removing about a pound of CO2 per bottle we create versus your more sustainable brands are emitting 10 to 15 pounds per bottle in which they create.
Jason Jacobs: And removing, removing meaning?
Greg Constantine: Utilizing.
Jason Jacobs: And where are you getting it from?
Greg Constantine: We're actually source-agnostic when it comes to the CO2. We access CO2 from a variety of different ways, and I'll kind of dig into that a little bit, but we're agnostic in what we need. So, you know, we work with directly in capture onsite ourselves. Currently, you know, we work with a provider in the northeast of New York that actually captures the CO2 before it's admitted the the atmosphere off of traditional ethanol plants. So the alcohol that, that we're actually making, we're actually, you know, making it from CO2 that's captured off of the traditional methods of manufacture for it.
We deployed a second piece of technology as part of the, the Carbon XPRIZE. We were finalists in a... In a carbon competition called the XPPRIZE and we deployed our technology I- in Calgary last year. They actually have an [inaudible 00:13:18] capture system on-site over there. So we can access it in a variety of ways, but, but in New York we get it off of traditional fermentation processes.
Jason Jacobs: And is all CO2 created equal? That's a loaded question 'cause I kn... I know the answer is no, but I'll ask it anyways.
Greg Constantine: Yeah, no. The, the, the, the answer is no. [laughs] Obviously, as you know, there's a variety of different ways in which it's created or in which it's captured in which... And, and, and how they do it. And I think that, you know, the one that's most top-of-mind for a lot of folks, and I know you've had some people speak about it on the show as well, is, you know, the route of direct air capture, and look, we're hopeful at some point in the future we would love for it to make sense from an economical point of view and from an energy input point of view as well, and, you know, we even worked on areas of it for ourselves here knowing that our technology can allow it to, but it really has to make cost sense at scale, because for these technologies or technologies like ours to be applicable at scale they have to be cost-effective as well.
Jason Jacobs: Well I have a bunch more Air Company questions but I want to put that aside for a moment and just talk about converting carbon to valuable products in general. And the reason I bring that up... Well, I guess multiple reasons, but, but one is that we have all this carbon that's up in the atmosphere and there's a lot of talk about what we do to reduce our emissions, but even if we reduce our net-new emissions, we still have way more up in the atmosphere than we should, and it's up there for hundreds of hundreds of years or longer, and so there's this gap where reducing isn't going to get us there fast enough and it's not going to be enough, and we need to remove.
So we can remove, what? Through whether it's direct air capture or carbon capture and storage, there's... I mean, there's different ways to remove it, but one of the real challenges... And I'm saying it as a statement but these are questions for validation by people deeper into it like you, but what's the market for it? What's going to pay? And so it's like the government can pay you through 45Q or things like that, but then you're relying on government to be the buyer and it just feels not like a comfy place to be for a long-term, sustainable strategy.
So I'm really intrigued when I hear about converting carbon to valuable products but I have so many questions. Maybe just talk a bit about the landscape as you see it? Where we are today, where we need to go, and what some of the hurdles are that are making it difficult to get there.
Greg Constantine: There's definitely a lot of work to be done, for sure. And it doesn't just start with, well, one company or one technology or one organization. It has to be worked on together, whether it's, you know, start-ups, entrepreneurs, legislation, and big business and beyond. I think that the... The challenge is a big one, and, and as you mentioned it, there's still a... Tons. Billions of tons of CO2, you know, still up there that need to be sequestered as well.
I think that the route that we took through that route of products is one because, as you mentioned, it isn't completely reliant on external factors, right? And while making and selling, you know, vodka or making and selling fragrance isn't gonna solve the entire problem, for us we're hopeful that it can be a solve of part of the problem, and, and part of the problem in a few ways. One, that it can show people that these products are real and that you can actually do and create something from CO2, because the sad reality is, when we started the business and still to this day, is that there are so many incredible technologies out there that never see the light of day. And they don't see the light of day because people can't understand them, people don't believe in them, and that people don't necessarily think that it's doable or that it's real. But when you create a product and you put it in front of someone and you can really show... Reasonably show that this product was, was made from carbon dioxide or from an innovative technology, it becomes a reality for people. And once it becomes a reality for people...
We always say that everything kind of starts and ends with the people and that, you know, when they're helping inform, you know, decisions, that's what helps change big business, that's what helps change legislation, and that's what helps continue to push technologies forward and push innovation forward as well. So while we're not sitting here being reliant on the government because we're going in and creating high-value products like this, we still need to work together and we need them onside for this to be effective at scale, because... I mentioned it early, but these products can sit and live on their own, but for the technology to be successful and to actually create true impact at scale, which is reducing or utilizing the most amount of CO2 as possible, we have to be able to do it at volume, and the way to do it at volume is when those costs come down over the course of time, and, and you need legislation on your side to be able to do so.
Jason Jacobs: And given how many different types of products there are in the world and the fact that, for example, you mentioned that not all CO2 is created equal, how do you think things are gonna play out in terms of... do you think it's gonna be one or a handful of companies that end up being the companies that convert carbon to products across many categories, industries, and geographies, or do you think that it will require some degree of specialization where there'll be many players in many different verticals, and different types of carbon, and different types of products, and that there's room for, for a lot of different players doing a lot of different things?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, that's a really interesting question, and one I've never been asked before, actually. And I think that, as I think through it now, I would say that we're hopeful that it's as widespread as possible, and only for the reason that we hope that those barriers to entry over time become lesser and lesser and lesser, and that, you know, legislation does change to make it, you know, easier for companies, or just to make it more cost-effective for companies to be able to do so as well, I think. And it's such a... The industry has been around, but it's also such a new industry at the same time, where there's so much new innovation that's happening, that I would love for more and more companies to crop up and for already-existing big business to be able to continue to innovate internally. I think that, you know, even though there's only a, a handful of companies doing either similar things to what we do or a variety of others, I think that as the industry grows, and as people become more aware to what is possible, I would love to see it across such a variety of sectors and, and cross industry as well.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And putting myself in the shoes of maybe a potential customer of yours, I just jotted down a f... A few notes of things that... I mean, I'm not in those shoes, so I have to wing it a little bit, but just a few things that would be on my mind, and one of them is cost. So how do you stack up today, where do you hope to get over time, and what are the key drivers of that that you hope to improve?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, we're more expensive today for sure. We're relatively small in that sense, and I would say that the goal is to, to reach parity or even below parity via cheaper than traditional methods of manufacture. The reality is, these things take time, and, you know, we can make our, our systems and our technology and our processes more efficient, which reduce our costs, but there's external factors that reduce our costs as well that time will help with, and, you know, cost of CO2, cost of renewable power, cost of hydrogen depending on how you're getting it. If you're doing electrolysis like us at this scale, you know, renewable power is a big factor within that as well, so, yeah, right now, you know, higher cost to produce, and, and I guess the last point that is, is like I think that anyone that tells you that they're gonna be cheaper to produce than traditional methods tomorrow, it just ain't the truth. And we're hopeful that we can collapse those timeframes and be as cheap or cheaper than traditional methods as soon as possible, but these things take time.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And then what about scale? So I mean, if a customer does a little pilot with you and, and they like it and they want to roll it out in a broader way and they're willing to pay a premium both to get the brand halo and because they're under pressure for their net zero commitments that they don't know how they'll fulfill, how scalable is this today? And then same question, how scalable do you hope it'll get over time, and what are they key drivers and barriers to making that happen?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, so the system that we deployed as part of the Carbon XPRIZE had a nameplate capacity of one tone of CO2 in per day. So we've achieve a kind of a pilot scale that shows the work that we've done there, and we operated that system for about 10,000 continuous operational hours, so 24/7 for 10,000 hours. We're now redeploying that facility down in Brooklyn. The scale that we want to get to is obviously world scale when you think about, you know, chemical plants and you think about kind of like, you know, use cases of, of, of ethanol and kind of the subcategories in which we want to go into, the thing that does take time is putting real steel in the ground. And, you know, when you think about, you know, manufacturing plants and building facilities, you gotta put real steel in the ground, which, which does take time.
Now, you know, our goal is to, of course, build and make as much as possible, but we always want to walk before we sprint because, you know, the reason in which a lot of our predecessors have failed is for trying to scale too fast. So, you know, a big focus for us is making sure that we're spending the correct amount of time scaling correctly and working with our partners in the right way to understand the learnings from all of them so that we're actually scaling in the right way, not just in the fastest way possible all the time.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And we've talked about cost, we've talked about scale. What about the quality and consistency of the output?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, that's a really good one. So, so Stafford, our CTO, spends, you know, tremendous amount of time on it. And, you know, when you go into industries like the beverage industry, or when you go into industries like the perfume industry, you're consuming a product, so quality is at the forefront. You know, you have to deal with so many regulatory bodies just to even get your, you know, your final product approved. You know, dealing with regulatory bodies in the US like the TTB, the Alcohol, Tobacco and Trade Bureau, in conjunction with, with folks like the FDA as well. So we're very, very stringent on quality of product, and it would be s... You know, these ethanol-based products wouldn't be successful if the quality of the product wasn't really high. And that's just a testament to, to our team. To the team that's working on it and to the work that they've done on the distillation side of things to be able to really produce and then work on such a clean product as well.
Jason Jacobs: And when you think about taking a company like this to market, don't share anything that's not public or that you don't want to share, but, but it'd be interesting to understand how you've capitalized the company, how you've staged that, and what sources of capital, and also just what advice you have for other climate tech entrepreneurs that are maybe working on technology in the lab and thinking about bringing it out of the lab and trying to work through similar in terms of how they should be thinking about capitalizing their companies and technology?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, I- I'll start with the second part of that question for, for kind of if there's anyone else out there listening and just so... You're... Just try to be as creative and scrappy and resourceful as possible because gaining access to capital, raising capital is... As an entrepreneur yourself, Jason, I'm sure y... Whether or not you've been in that process, is it's never as easy as you think it's gonna be, and it's always a little bit more painful than you want it to be as well, so being persistent, being creative, you know, never stopping is part of that process as well, and just kind of, you know, being a bit of a bulldog in that process and making sure that you're always just constantly moving forward and, and being as resourceful as possible, and leaving no stone unturned.
For us, we bootstrapped the company ourselves, Stafford and myself originally, and then went out and, and raised a seed round of capital at an early stage that then allowed us to really prove things out first. And we've always... You know, our capital strategy has always been prove and develop technology, prove that that, you know, phase of technology works, prove that there's a market for a consumer in which... If, if you're going into an area there, and then go and try to access capital off of that... off of the back of those milestones and that success. And, and that's how we've kind of done it.
So yeah, the early stage kind of capital that we got was a mixture of equity from a seed round, but we've also, you know, won prize money from, from the folks over at XPRIZE. We've won prizes from folks like NASA, and we've won some grant funding as well, both in, in the US and, and in Canada. So I would say that, like, we try to access a variety of... Or various amounts of capital and the types of capital, and will continue to so as well. And, and you've got to really think about what's, what's most right for your business and what's most right for your business at that point in time. But kind of more so than anything, you've got to make sure that you're business still has the ability to survive. So y- y- you'll do what's right and, and almost whatever it takes as well.
Jason Jacobs: And how have you thought about things like non-dilutive funding, if at all? And, and obviously winning contests is a form of non-dilutive funding, but what about grants?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, grants play a big, big roll. You know, we've just recently won a grant from the National Science Foundation as well. Organizations obviously like the Department of Energy play a big role in the industry that we're in and we're, you know, in constant communication with them and, you know, our ability or, or are want or ability to try to get access to that grant funding as well. You know, as for from a company perspective and as an entrepreneur, you always try to make sure that you're limiting the amount of dilution to your shareholders within the business as well, so access to, to non-dilutive funding is always a, a win. Granted, you have to consider, you know, what the implications of that are as well, and, you know, if you talk about... You know, things like debt finance is obviously a, a lot of pros but also a lot of cons to it, and just weighing up those against the milestones within your business and what you think that you reasonably have the ability to do is how you're gonna make that decision at the end of the day.
Jason Jacobs: And with the initial customers that you do have, given that it is more expensive, at least today, what's motivating them to pull the trigger and give this a try?
Greg Constantine: Depends on the type of customer. If you're selling a good into a... Into a high value, low volume market such as the fragrance industry as an example, the ability to fluctuate more on price than if you're selling a commodity chemical is far great, right? Because they're selling these really high, high-margin products where they can fluctuate a little bit more on price. So there's a bit more price flexibility and a little bit less sensitivity when you're in those high-value arenas that allows them to trial things like this a little bit more, and on top of that, it's all about the pathway. It's where do we think that we can get to in time, and not only where do we think that we can get to as a business but where do they think that our business can get to over the course of time given their analysis of the industry that they're in and given their analysis of kind of context around the world.
And we touched on it before but i... You know, if the goal in some of these sectors is parity over the next several years, then that's when it becomes, you know, really exciting to these businesses because not only are you then able to match or get close to matching their costs, the claims that they're making from their net zero goals and their sustainable impact goals are able to be met as well with technologies like this. So you're really able to help provide their business with a lot of kind of... A lot of success for them as well.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And how do you think about impact and how do you measure it, if at all?
Greg Constantine: We measure impact by a few factors, but number one is, you know, how much CO2 are we utilizing? You know, the more CO2 and the most efficient use of that utilization is a goal. And so the more CO2 that we're utilizing, the more product that we're creating, the more impact that we're having. A tertiary kind of sign of impact for us is watching the industry grow, and watching the industry grow around us. We've seen so many of our peers since we started the business go out and, and try to commercialize products, try to commercialize technology. Even, you know, things like My Climate Journey, you know, seeing, you know, podcasts, seeing content streams pop up, just seeing so much education around it, even just the questions that you're sitting here asking now weren't questions that we would get asked five, six years ago when we start the company. So I think that that awareness is a huge metric for us because it's knowing that if our ultimate goal is to continue to push humanity forward and continue to kind of innovate, and we're seeing, you know, the industry just grow as a whole, huge win. Massive, massive win.
Jason Jacobs: When you think about the future and this next phase, what are you most worried about? Where are the biggest risks in the company, and what's keeping you up at night?
Greg Constantine: Yeah. A lot of things keep us up at night, but I really believe that, you know, we're at a stage now where... And a lot of companies that... You know, at similar stages to us now, is, is coming out of, you know, innovation, and coming out of R&D. And you'll always continue to innovate and, and do research and development, but, you know, how can you, and how can we as a company, really start to make this commercially viable at scale? Because that's when you're creating real impact and, you know, that's kind of the inflection point that we're at with this, this next scale of facility that we're going to build, is we're really gonna start to understand where the competitive advantage lies, or where the advantage lies compared to traditional methods, you know, not CO2-derived, and is it gonna be truly viable at scale form a coast road map, for cost reduction roadmap, from an output roadmap as well.
Jason Jacobs: And how do you think about policy? How much does that factor into your ultimate success, and how much do you resource to it, if at all?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, we- we've been under-resourced on the policy front, whether you call it under-resourced or just, you know, having focused on other areas of the business, I would say is where our focus has lied. I think we're gonna have a, a stronger focus on it moving forward because it, it is important. And policy and, and the lobbying for it is, is a massively important part of it. However, when you're a... You know, when you're spending the first several years of your company kind of scrapping to make sure that things are just working or that kind of... You know, the, the, the lights are on on, on the ceiling, you tend to spend a lot of your time trying to get through the innovation, the R&D and the engineering first.
And, you know, a bit of the, the beauty of, you know, selling these kind of higher-value products is that we haven't been reliant on it up until now. But as we think about the transition from, from these consumer industries into these industrial industries, it becomes more prevalent than ever, and so I think that as an industry and... I've said it a few times, but I think, you know, creating communities like the community you've created really helps to kind of continually push that, 'cause you're giving folks a voice and you're shining a spotlight on these companies, on these technologies that are needing it.
Jason Jacobs: When you think about that transition, how do you think about timing? And also, what are the key differences that need to be factored in in terms of doing things differently to support that evolution?
Greg Constantine: I would say time's never on our side, so, you know, when we think about timing, we're always trying to be mindful of, you know, taking that into consideration. Like time is never on our side. It's the one thing that we'll always lose. So we're always trying to push forward and, forgive me, but I didn't quite catch the second part of that question.
Jason Jacobs: The second part of that question is, when you think about transitioning from consumer to more of these industrial markets, what are the key differences in the industrial market that you need to plan for, and then what does that planning entail, or what types of changes would need to take place for you to be able to make that transition effectively?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, there's just... There's a lot. There's so many. And I think the really key drivers that we think about, that... To make it viable from consumer to industrial is really just output and cost. Like, you know, can you provide on global scale? And if you can't, then you got to try to figure out how you can, so that's, you know, engineering and scale up, and then is it gonna be cost effective at scale? Because these technologies are great when you're selling them in a... In a high-value product, but you really need to think about if your cost road map is doable and if it makes sense. And if it does, you got to just work tirelessly at reducing those costs and increasing your output and hopefully bringing on, you know, the right partners alongside you to help you work towards those.
Jason Jacobs: And when you think about what needs to happen over the next several years, we've talked about some of the tailwind in the market with new interest and motivation and urgency and capital. What are some of the bottlenecks, and what are some of the gaps that, if they were no longer gaps, would help you and others trying to do similar to accelerate?
Greg Constantine: Access and availability to renewable power. Access and availability to green CO2, I guess, so to speak, and, again, access and availability to green hydrogen, from our point of view. It's just like there's, there's so many factors that narrow out to it. I think if you ask folks in similar positions than ours, they'll... A lot of them kind of use this analogy of, if there's areas of our businesses that we're kind of almost like a, a Netflix waiting for the internet to catch up, right?
And there's... You're sitting and developing technologies that still need so many tertiary things to line up for them to be successful at scale. So what you continue to do is just continue to work on it, you know, iterate, optimize processes, and, you know, hope that over the course of time, the cost of renewable power will come down, the availability and cost of, you know, of CO2 will continue to come down, you know, the advancement of technologies like direct air capture hopefully will continue to decrease their costs so that then, you know, at scale we have the ability to integrate all these tertiary processes into processes like ours so that it can work at scale and be deployed all around the world.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And I know you've already taken on a lot with Air Company, and it's important that you stay focused to deliver on the mission that you have in front of you, but if you look at these three other areas that you're reliant, on the renewable power and clean CO2 and green hydrogen, if I were to double-click on each one of those, do you have any specific ideas or anything that... Because there's a... There's a number of aspiring founders and check-writers and government off... Policy-makers and things like that that listen to this show, so how could those be addressed, each of those, to make things easier for important companies like yours?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, I think you're seeing things like, you know, carbon taxes in place and, you know, bills like the Buy Back Better bill that will hopefully kind of, you know, reduce or incentivize the reduction in cost of green hydrogen or production of it. So there's things that are happening and a... And while we're, you know, involved within those realms, I would say we're hopeful that we can lean on, you know, the experts within those fields that are working on it, you know, to do so.
But you've had guys on the show like Paul from Remora who had, you know, capturing CO2 off of trucks. You know, I think, you know, seeing new, innovative technologies like this cropping up is what's helping push the industry forward as well, right? Where you've got young entrepreneurs going out and trying to innovate in one of those three sectors as well to try to make it, you know, more applicable or more readily available as well, so I think it's going to be a, a sum of all parts, and, and we're just hopeful that, like, we can at least help play a role in utilizing those elements of areas in which people are working on.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And this is more of a personal question, but how much are you motivated by mission here versus the financial opportunity in front of you, and does one come at the expense of another? Like, how do you think about those two things and the tension between them?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, I would say that, like, we're pretty much mostly majority-weighted on the mission and the purpose, and that's why we've got, you know, such a group of hard-working folks on this side, you know? I would say that the economics on selling a- an ethanol or, or a sustainable aviation fuel for our business right now, they don't necessarily make a whole ton of sense in that our cost to produce is so high.
So the financial motivation isn't what drives us on a daily basis at this point in time. The goal is in the future that you could build a real successful business behind it, but, you know, why we do what we do is, is why we started the company, which is, you know, for us, the rise in atmospheric CO2 levels is what's not only continually causing climate change but allowing us, or allowing Earth to potentially become uninhabitable. So if we can help play a role in the reduction of that, that's why we do what we do. So it's all about the mission and why, and hopefully that can translate to a successful business over the course of time.
Jason Jacobs: So given that that's the primary driver for you and the team, how important is it for that to be the primary driver for the capital sources that you work with along the way?
Greg Constantine: Yeah, good question. I would say that they have to have it as a consideration, and it has to be a part of it because I said it earlier on, these things take time. It's not gonna happen overnight. So for the funders out there or the funders that, you know, that, that listen to your show, I would say that, like, things aren't gonna change overnight. Sure, we've gone out and produced a, a high-value, low-volume product that is a bit better of a solution to allow people to understand the business metrics and the flow of it.
That being said, I've harped on it, it takes times. These, these things take time so you have to understand that a lot of the folks that are entering these categories are mission-driven. Sure, they might come from business backgrounds and the rest, but, you know, the mission is also important. So understanding that there's a layer of that that comes into play and that, you know, when you're funding projects like this that some will fail, and all we can do is continually try, because without trying you're not gonna have the, the success at the end of the day. So yeah, I think that hopefully answers it.
Jason Jacobs: Uh-huh. And if we look ahead, I mean, it's an arbitrary number, but say 10 years and you've just knocked the cover off the ball and exceeded your wildest dreams in terms of what you were able to achieve with Air Company, what have you done at that time? What does the company look like?
Greg Constantine: The goal would be to be continually be applying our technology in all the industry verticals in which it can be applied to. You know, working with large scale partners in those verticals to deliver it at scale, because that's where you can create true impact. That's where you can, you know, utilize the most amount of CO2 possible as well. And again, I touched on it a little bit before, but if we can inspire others to go out and, and at least try something or try something new, try something different, than that's a win for us as well because Staff and I when we met were just two guys in a bar having a drink who said, we think that we should go out and try something like this, irrespective of all the nos that you receive or the... Kind of the disbelief in what you're trying to do in commercializing projects that big business haven't done before. So if we can be an inspiration for others to go out and do so as well, I think that that would be a massive win for us as a company.
Jason Jacobs: And a bunch of people with diverse backgrounds, industries, geographies listen to the show. How can they or we be helpful to you? Where do you need help?
Greg Constantine: Support and education. Our products are the best educative tool around what we do, and, you know, I, I think as a group or as a community, you know, the climate and carbon technology community, I think we all need to, you know, support each other in the endeavors in which we're doing, and I think from what you guys are doing, Jason over at My Climate Journey, not only from this but from the kind of... You know, the, the, the investments that you make and, and beyond, I think gives a show of support and I think, you know, the support that the industry gives each other is great. You know, an- any time that, you know, new technologies crop up or you read about it on the internet, I think, you know, a lot of the light is positive on it, which is great, and I think that we need to continue to support those that are going out and innovating as well.
Jason Jacobs: Greg, is there anything I didn't ask that I should have, or any parting words for listeners?
Greg Constantine: I think the questions are great, and I think you kind of, you know, touched on a lot of elements. I think, you know, from a funding perspective and beyond. You know, I would just say that, like, what technologists are doing, and engineers are doing, and scientists are doing is really hard stuff, and it's not easy to continually try to push boundaries and, and continue to embark on the work that they've spent their careers and... Doing and will continue to do, so I think the support is very well-needed, and hopefully we can continue to push boundaries.
Jason Jacobs: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. Excited to watch your continued progress. We'll be rooting for your success, and best of luck to you and the whole Air Company Team.
Greg Constantine: Thanks, Jason. Appreciate it.
Jason Jacobs: Hey, everyone. Jason here. Thanks again for joining me on My Climate Journey. If you'd like to learn more about the journey, you can visit us at MyClimateJourney.co. Note, that is co, not .com. Some day we'll get the .com, but right now, .co. You can also find me on Twitter at JJacobs22, where I would encourage you to share your feedback on the episode or suggestions for future guests you'd like to hear. And before I let you go, if you enjoyed the show, please share an episode with a friend or consider leaving a review on iTunes. The lawyers made me say that. Thank you.
